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What's Wrong With Endgame?

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  • #51
    My problem was that they were trying to use a movie written by people who weren't required to familiarize themselves with the characters and universe that had become Canon. Bill Panzer should have stuck to his guns like Gene Roddenbury and used the creative team from the series instead. They knew the characters and their history. They knew how to get a quality product on a limited budget. They were successful at working with an international crew. By giving up so much control to the bankers who each wanted their own vision added to the film...it diminished the final product. Once again... a Highlander movie sequel didn't deliver what the fans were expecting.

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    • #52
      This isn't exactly something "wrong," but it's an oddity I - for some reason - never thought of till yesterday. In the original version of the film - the one released to theaters (and the one I choose to think of as canon) - the Sanctuary is said to be on holy ground. Kell's taking all those heads, with no shocking consequences, proves the holy ground beliefs were a myth. A very understandable myth, invented so long ago that even Methos presumably heard it from others before he could learn from experience that nothing out of the ordinary would happen.

      When Connor is about to fight Kell in Endgame, Duncan - instinctively? - reminds him that he's on holy ground, and he carefully steps away from it. Even though, by then, all of them know holy ground wouldn't cause a problem!

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      • Tootsie Bee
        Tootsie Bee commented
        Editing a comment
        Connor doesn't step away from it. See my comment on your previous post.

    • #53
      Originally posted by Wilusa View Post
      This isn't exactly something "wrong," but it's an oddity I - for some reason - never thought of till yesterday. In the original version of the film - the one released to theaters (and the one I choose to think of as canon) - the Sanctuary is said to be on holy ground. Kell's taking all those heads, with no shocking consequences, proves the holy ground beliefs were a myth. A very understandable myth, invented so long ago that even Methos presumably heard it from others before he could learn from experience that nothing out of the ordinary would happen.

      When Connor is about to fight Kell in Endgame, Duncan - instinctively? - reminds him that he's on holy ground, and he carefully steps away from it. Even though, by then, all of them know holy ground wouldn't cause a problem!
      I always respond to that one with: I think it's because there was no fight. The Immortals he beheaded were unaware of their danger.

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      • #54
        Yet another complaint: "Properly executed, this move is unstoppable." Which is why neither Connor nor Duncan ever use it in any film or episode until this point...?
        __________________________________________________

        "Really? We are trapped in a room with a machine that can cut off my head. Now that's a longshot."
        --Connor MacLeod in Peter Bellwood's original Highlander II script

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        • #55
          At least the original line was "almost unstoppable." Meaning that there COULD have been a reason not to use it all the time. But make it unstoppable so that when Kell blocks it, he's CLEVER! But... but.. was there ever gonna be a single reason for that move to exist other than to force Duncan's hand and actually kill Connor? Cause we ALL know, he really never would otherwise, under any circumstances.

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          • #56
            Connor should've taught him the move he used to kill Kurgan and Kell instead, methinks.
            __________________________________________________

            "Really? We are trapped in a room with a machine that can cut off my head. Now that's a longshot."
            --Connor MacLeod in Peter Bellwood's original Highlander II script

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            • Aleander
              Aleander commented
              Editing a comment
              You meant Kane, there?

            • Tootsie Bee
              Tootsie Bee commented
              Editing a comment
              Shh! I can rewrite Endgame however I want!

          • #57
            That finishing move in 1 and 3? Yeah, that'd have been real useful. After all, he won the Prize with that move.

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            • #58
              Originally posted by Tootsie Bee View Post
              Connor should've taught him the move he used to kill Kurgan
              The "look for a woman to wait in the shadows and smack my adversary with a pipe at a key moment so I can take the advantage" move? That one?
              Highlander: Dark Places

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              • dubiousbystander
                dubiousbystander commented
                Editing a comment
                Hahahah I almost said that, but you beat me to it days ago.

            • #59
              No, the "dupe your opponent into charging at you like an idiot, then turn around and cut off his head as he passes by" technique.


              Properly executed, that move is surprisingly effective.
              __________________________________________________

              "Really? We are trapped in a room with a machine that can cut off my head. Now that's a longshot."
              --Connor MacLeod in Peter Bellwood's original Highlander II script

              Comment


              • #60
                Works with capes on bulls.
                “A sinner can always repent, but stupid is forever.”
                Billy Sunday

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                • Tootsie Bee
                  Tootsie Bee commented
                  Editing a comment
                  ...which is why he should have tried it on Bull from Night Court.

                • Coolwater
                  Coolwater commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Connor would have to tattoo "fun!" on his arm!

              • #61
                Speaking of which, Duncan's decap of Kell... man, that is AWFUL. The whole jump was just ineptly done.

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                • #62
                  Originally posted by Aleander View Post
                  Speaking of which, Duncan's decap of Kell... man, that is AWFUL. The whole jump was just ineptly done.
                  I'm not the hugest fan of the way the dummy body looks when it goes over the rails, but it's still better than Kurgan's not-quite-a-visible-beheading. Kane's was visually the best.
                  Highlander: Dark Places

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                  • #63
                    Yeah, Kane's the best in the entire franchise, although Katana's in 2 is a close second.

                    But I was refering more to the finish move. Duncan just jumps over Kell, who's stunned for some reason? Come on!

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                    • #64
                      ^ Absolutely love those beheadings in H3 -- very brutal and "juicy" (if that makes sense).

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                      • #65
                        Highlander and Endgame have the better final Quickenings though.
                        May flights of Demons guide you to your final rest...

                        Comment


                        • #66
                          Originally posted by Aleander View Post
                          Yeah, Kane's the best in the entire franchise, although Katana's in 2 is a close second.

                          But I was refering more to the finish move. Duncan just jumps over Kell, who's stunned for some reason? Come on!
                          He was shocked by Duncan harnessing the Power Illusion to spook him with Connor.
                          Highlander: Dark Places

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                          • #67
                            Not really. He was more shocked Duncan jumped with the precision he did.

                            God, I hate that moment.

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                            • #68
                              Another continuity error introduced by this film: when the elder Highlander introduces himself to Duncan in the flashback by saying, "I'm Connor MacLeod of the clan MacLeod," we don't immediately cut to a passionate blue-lit love scene. That's a basic failure to stick to the franchise formula up to that point. The Power of Seduction is an essential part of Connor's character in the first three films.
                              __________________________________________________

                              "Really? We are trapped in a room with a machine that can cut off my head. Now that's a longshot."
                              --Connor MacLeod in Peter Bellwood's original Highlander II script

                              Comment


                              • #69
                                Giggling. Andrew's Connor & Duncan show addresses that. Connor introduces himself, and the women fall all over him. Duncan introduces himself, and the women are iffy. Methos introduces himself and can't get a word out before the women adore him. Or am I remembering that that quite correctly? Probably not...

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                                • #70
                                  Originally posted by Aleander View Post
                                  Well, Culloden makes sense enough, as he's left Scotland, but visits Ireland because of how it reminds him of his home... I'd argue killing Kate is the breaking point for him, the point where he abandons even his Scots accent after this, and truly becomes a man of the world like his mentor.

                                  But yeah, Duncan killing Kate out of the blue is still very uncharacteristic of him. At any age.
                                  Yeah, Duncan killing Kate is a problem for me too, it just seems so out of character. It's one of the two big faults I see with Endgame (the other is the death of Connor. I felt like that was done purely for shock value - "Ooh I know, let's kill off the main character of the series! No one will see it coming!" I once attempted to rewrite Endgame so Connor didn't die, but I didn't get very far. Might go back to it one day if I can get the file back). The other things are smaller issues - I'd have incapacitated Rachel, rather than killing her outright and Methos could have had a bigger part, stuff like that - but the two big ones for me are Connor and Kate's deaths at Duncan's hands.

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                                  • #71
                                    Originally posted by LizzyB View Post

                                    Yeah, Duncan killing Kate is a problem for me too, it just seems so out of character. It's one of the two big faults I see with Endgame (the other is the death of Connor. I felt like that was done purely for shock value - "Ooh I know, let's kill off the main character of the series! No one will see it coming!" I once attempted to rewrite Endgame so Connor didn't die, but I didn't get very far. Might go back to it one day if I can get the file back). The other things are smaller issues - I'd have incapacitated Rachel, rather than killing her outright and Methos could have had a bigger part, stuff like that - but the two big ones for me are Connor and Kate's deaths at Duncan's hands.
                                    But why? Just curious. So many "friends" of Duncan and so on have come by Duncan's own hand in the series itself.
                                    Highlander: Dark Places

                                    Comment


                                    • Coolwater
                                      Coolwater commented
                                      Editing a comment
                                      It's not that Duncan doesn't kill. He kills in self-protection and he kills when he thinks it is a moral or practical necessity. Even then, he always talks first ("We don't have to do this."). If the film were better written, Duncan would have explained Kate/Faith's situation to her and demonstrated his own immortality to her. He might have forced the first death on her (women had NO rights and even a mortal husband could usually get away with killing his wife), but he'd have explained it to her first.
                                      And once she had been killed and reborn, Duncan would have had a legal right and expectation that she couldn't just run off. he'd have gone after her.

                                  • #72
                                    The Kate thing seems just written for the sake of drama. Also, "Oh noes, if they don't suffer a violent death they won't become Immortal!" being long known by most folks was just too out of the blue.

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                                    • #73
                                      Originally posted by Andrew NDB View Post

                                      But why? Just curious. So many "friends" of Duncan and so on have come by Duncan's own hand in the series itself.
                                      Katie's death just feels like selfishness on Duncan's part and arrogance and while he's almost certainly displayed these traits previously (I say almost because it's been a long time since I had a rewatch and my memory is hazy, especially on the latter seasons), this just feels like more than someone being a bit self-centred, he shows little or no understanding of how Kate might process the news of her potential immortality, he doesn't even seem to consider telling her, he just makes a decision that has far reaching consequences.
                                      Last edited by LizzyB; 08-09-2017, 12:34 PM.

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