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What's Wrong With Endgame?

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  • #76
    Have recently decided to dust off my goal of making various improvements to Endgame, certainly editorially, but notably, Visually. such as Deaging Christopher Lambert , as well as some some unsatisfying things like Connor's Quickening, some things during the Climax, something very much important to me is to include Scotland in a way that appears to have been intended, but not done. this current Work is only in Progress

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    • #77
      Obviously no serious filming was done is Scotland, aside from a Lambert double on a Horse, ariel shots being very beautiful Stock Footage, the actual Footage of Connor and Heather being shot in Romania, the very noticeably flat land and bare sky cropped out of the final film, but clearly shot in a way indicating that Scotland would be digitally added in

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Nicholas Ward View Post
        Highlander and Endgame have the better final Quickenings though.
        Good God no - not Endgame. Edngame's just generic, low-budget bullshit.

        IMO, the best Quickenings in the movies are the Kurgan, Corda (the one with the walking Quickening that hits a few beer cans first), Khan and Kane Quickenings. Everything else is lesser.

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        • #79
          I take a liking to Quickenings that display traits of the person killed. So I like the Kurgans, Kells, Larca's and Wilson Gearys after my own obviously.
          Last edited by Nicholas Ward; 02-22-2020, 01:36 AM.
          May flights of Demons guide you to your final rest...

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          • #80
            While the script is horrible, the editing does not help. So, here are the top 10 editing fails in Highlander Endgame:

            1: The final fight: The final battle between Duncan and Kell does not work in either main cut (and barley in workprint), here's why:

            Theatrical: Duncan and Kell are in a pipe room, then suddenly their on a catwalk, then Duncan falls onto the ground and somehow their outside and Duncan's without his coat (and I don't understand either). There's some terrible facemorphing, Duncan and Kell keep changing positions between cuts and Kell is killed.

            Producer: Duncan and Kell are in a pipe room, then suddenly their on a catwalk, then Duncan falls onto the ground and he Kell proceed to fight some more (with a jump cut) before some small explosions separate them (with there being too many cuts). Then their in a chain room and they fight before Duncan gets away. As Duncan removes his coat, Matthew tries to shoot him, but Joe kills him instead. There's some terrible facemorphing, Duncan and Kell keep changing positions between cuts and Kell is killed.

            Workprint: Duncan and Kell are in a pipe room, then suddenly their on a catwalk, then Duncan falls onto the ground and he Kell proceed to fight some more (with no jump cut before some small explosions separate them. Then their in a chain room and they fight before Duncan gets away. As Duncan removes his coat, Kell calls out to him and then there's a camera pan to the side of the building before showing Kell and Dunan fighting. There's no facemorphing and Kell is killed.

            2: Connor's quickening: I hate everything about Connor in this movie and his death is the worst. While it plays out relativly the same in all 3 cuts, the quickening in the thatrical and producer cuts is so short, it's baffaling. In the workprint, it goes on much longer (including a throwback to the first movie).

            3: The training flashback in the thatrical and producer cuts is so choppy, it's hard to follow. It's much longer and easier to follow in the workprint.

            4: There's a deleted scene not present in any of the cuts where Duncan encounter's Bob and pins him with Connor's sword to a van before sending it crashing through the wall of Kell's temple. It explains why Kell kills his posse (in order to gain more power before fighting Duncan). Without it, it just looks like he kills them for no reason.

            5: In the thatrical and prodcuer cuts, there's no clear reason why Faith goes to Duncan to have sex with him. In the workprint, following Kate and Duncan's conversation, we see a nice montage of both Duncan and Kate walking the streets separately, both clearly pondering the conversation they had with each other. We see Kate start to think about what she is doing. She walks into the temple, she greets Kell and says "no not tonight, I'm tired." There, an establishment of at least a sexual relationship.

            What follows is a conversation on a balcony of this huge temple, that Kate mentions is still in construction. They then talk about the Game, the Quickening, Kell'smotivations, and Kate and the rest's part in all of it. The conversation ends quite strikingly. Kell asks Kate "Do you know what LIVE spelled backwards is?" She responds, "Live would be Evil, but LIVED would be..." She turns, and Kell is gone.

            Kate then imagines and thinks back to:

            A longer and better version of the highwaymen scene. There is actual humor, as the highwaymen play off of each other, as do Duncan and Connor. At one point we see the highwaymen draw their swords as they think Duncan is smart to their ways, but they quickly shield their swords as Duncan indulges them. When they actually fight, there is nice interaction between Connor and Duncan, who sits on his butt and critiques Connor's technique as Connor finishes off the last two highwaymen. There's also a longer wedding celebration sequence, where we see a drunk yell at
            Duncan to "kiss her!!!", who happily obliges.

            NOW WE ACTUALLY KNOW WHY KATE GOES TO VISIT DUNCAN, she remembers the good old times and hopes to recapture the feelings to those memories.

            6: In the workprint, The fight scene between Duncan and Kell's goons is much better. Each henchman gets a short intro, then they all make cracks toward Duncan, who returns the shots, even making fun of Cracker Bob's outfit, who then complains about it to Kate...who sort of shrugs. What follows is an INCREDIBLE fight scene, cleanly edited, much more coherent, and about 2 minutes longer. We see Duncan cut and beat up all of Kell's henchman good and decisively, and see a nice longer scene of Duncan battling off all of them from the stairs. We also see Cracker Bob pull the bat out of his head...ouch. You can actually tell what is going on, and the goons double and triple team a lot more, so the choreography is much more complex than what ended up in the other cuts.

            7: In the workrint: When Duncan is strapped to the chair, Matthew explains why and how Kell is so powerful. Why any of this was cut is besides me, as it nicely explains his power.

            8: There's a deleted scene where Jin and Faith talk. It provides some interesting dialogue between the characters.

            9: In the theatrical cut, it's never explain how Duncan gets his sword back. There's a short scene shwoing it in producer cut and the workprint.

            10: The Last Supper: This scene is horrible in the theatircal cut because the posse just stare while kell kills everyone. The producer cut version is the same, but Faith survives. Even though the shot of her beads falling to the floor is still there and her dead body is still on the floor!?

            In the workprint, Kell does a surprise attack that kill 3 of the posse. Jin kills himself and then Kell tells Faith to leave (and the video quality is too low to see if Faith's dead body is still there, even though the scene of her and Duncan reconciling after the final fight is absent).


            It's a mess no matter how you look at it. It would be interesting to have access to the shooting script to try and figure out exactly was originally intended and how much was potential reshoots (e.g. was Faith supposed to live or die).

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            • #81
              I'm trying to reconcile that gypsy prediction in the TV show about Duncan never being married, but in Endgame he marries Kate. Does it not count because he killed her on their wedding night? But he was still technically married.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by MidnightBlue View Post
                I'm trying to reconcile that gypsy prediction in the TV show about Duncan never being married, but in Endgame he marries Kate. Does it not count because he killed her on their wedding night? But he was still technically married.
                No. It is really there, at least according to Donna Lettow or Gillian Horvath, I've forgotten which, for one reason. One of the male showrunners said (and all quotes are actually paraphrasing) "I have a great idea! Duncan has a wife he killed!"
                To which one of those wonderful ladies replied, "But we made this whole big deal in the series about how he'd never been married."
                To which the showrunner replied: "No one will care."

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by dubiousbystander View Post

                  No. It is really there, at least according to Donna Lettow or Gillian Horvath, I've forgotten which, for one reason. One of the male showrunners said (and all quotes are actually paraphrasing) "I have a great idea! Duncan has a wife he killed!"
                  To which one of those wonderful ladies replied, "But we made this whole big deal in the series about how he'd never been married."
                  To which the showrunner replied: "No one will care."
                  Voilà Dubiousbystander! This sums it up, now you understand why I reject the Highlander franchise movies and everything that goes wrong in canon. So damn inconsistent. How do you want me to respect a franchise that shows so little respect to its own continuity and to its audience ?

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                  • Nicholas Ward
                    Nicholas Ward commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Your constant derogatory comments on the franchise are not wanted and are getting quite repetative.
                    If you don't have anything positive to say, then don't say anything at all.

                • #84
                  Pretty certain the man wasn't thinking in terms of continuity or audience. Experience with people has taught me that he was most likely thinking, "How could anyone believe that Duncan MacLeod lived all that time without getting married? He's the marrying kind! He wanted to marry every woman he fell in love with!" Actually, I think probably "killed his wife" was not part of the dialogue.

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                  • #85
                    Originally posted by dubiousbystander View Post
                    To which the showrunner replied: "No one will care."
                    I care!!!

                    Duncan is the quintessential family man. He wants to settle down and have a family. He built a whole house for crying out loud. You see his diapering skills in some episode or another and even offered to help deliver Dr. Anne Lindsey's baby. You can envision him being quite content living the tranquil domestic life, which he did briefly with Little Deer and Kahani. I like the never marry prophesy though, I think that's the distinguishing factor between Duncan the mortal and Duncan the immortal, if he were mortal he'd definitely be married however his immortality is what dooms him to never getting what he really wants - a peaceful family life. Every mortal girl who gets entangled with him will likely meet a premature end or she will not be able to handle the fact that he's immortal. It adds a tragic element. Without that dynamic the entire show would be less interesting, who wants to watch a happy married couple? Actually, I do. Simply because it's so rare to see. But that's what keeps you watching, there's a part of you that keeps hoping it works out for him, but for the adventure to continue you know it will not.
                    Last edited by MidnightBlue; 07-28-2020, 02:54 AM.

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                    • #86
                      Exactly, MidnightBlue. So the showrunner thought, with what you said there, that it was impossible that Duncan had really never married.

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                      • #87
                        So basically Endgame isn't bad but the order in which the scenes play out can be improved upon?
                        May flights of Demons guide you to your final rest...

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                        • #88
                          It was alright, it could have been better, but it wasn't a disaster like the Source. I liked the fight sequences.

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                          • #89
                            I have the region 1 DVD but the weird case is pretty annoying!
                            JB

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                            • #90
                              I recently encountered an old article in the Los Angeles Times online.

                              Experience with disappearing webpages make me copy the text. The link I'll put at the end. I found one bit quite confusing:
                              Connor receives a wound that ought to have been fatal, he discovers that he is one of the Immortals and has been around for some 5,000 years without realizing it--and that Jacob is one of the Immortals, too.
                              Where did this writer get THAT?
                              In ‘Highlander,’ No End to Carnage
                              By KEVIN THOMAS
                              SEP. 4, 200012 AM
                              TIMES STAFF WRITER
                              “Highlander: Endgame” brings the popular, Gothic, supernatural fantasy-adventure series to a spectacular finish--but leaving immortality with a really bad name. That’s because Christopher Lambert’s Connor MacLeod and his younger clansman, Duncan (Adrian Paul, who starred in the “Highlander” TV series), seem to spend most of their limitless time in bloody combat, fighting off bad guys across the centuries.

                              No wonder Connor remarks to Duncan in despair, “Every life I touch ends in killing without a reason,” after his archenemy blows up his foster daughter in her Manhattan antique shop. In nearly 500 years, Connor in fact has slain 262 adversaries--to Duncan’s mere 174. But that archenemy, Jacob Kell (Bruce Payne, a world-class scenery-chewer), has slain 661 people, and he is rapidly becoming so powerful his evil threatens to escalate beyond defeat.

                              Connor and Jacob, originally best friends, became enemies way back in the 16th century in the Scottish Highlands. A priest declared Connor’s mother a witch and ordered her burned at the stake while her son watched behind bars. Connor breaks loose, saves his mother from incineration though not death and in revenge kills the priest, upsetting Jacob mightily. When in the ensuing melee Connor receives a wound that ought to have been fatal, he discovers that he is one of the Immortals and has been around for some 5,000 years without realizing it--and that Jacob is one of the Immortals, too.

                              *

                              We time-travel over the past half-millennium, checking in on the respective battles of the MacLeods and Kell and we’re made to feel that we’ve missed none of them. At long last Connor and Duncan have a final face-off with Kell on a Manhattan rooftop--but only one of the MacLeods, by Immortal rules, can go up against Kell. (For “Highlander” trivia buffs, the only way you can kill an Immortal is by separating his head from his body.)

                              Filmed largely in Romania, “Highlander: Endgame” looks sensational, moves like lightning. But its script (by Joel Soisson) makes no pretense about being logical or even comprehensible, which undermines Douglas Aarniokoski’s vigorous, commanding direction and Lambert’s and Paul’s surprisingly poignant performances. It celebrates extreme combat between men and then suggests that this can become wearying after awhile to even the most durable of warriors. Even more wearying, unless you’re a rabid Highlander fan, is having to watch all this carnage.

                              * MPAA rating: R, for violence and some strong sexuality. Times guidelines: extreme violence, high casualty count, one sex scene.

                              ‘Highlander: Endgame’

                              Christopher Lambert: Connor MacLeod

                              Adrian Paul: Duncan MacLeod

                              Bruce Payne: Jacob Kell

                              Lisa Barbuscia: Kate/Faith

                              A Dimension Films presentation. Director Douglas Aarniokoski. Producers Peter Davis, William Panzer. Executive producers Bob Weinstein, Harvey Weinstein, Cary Granat. Screenplay by Joel Soisson; from a story by Eric Bernt and Gillian Horvath & William Panzer and based on characters created by Gregory Widen. Cinematographer Doug Milsome. Editors Tracy Granger, Rod Dean, Donald J. Paonessa. Music Stephen Graziano. Costumes Wendy Partridge. Production designer Jonathan Carlson. Set decorator Mary Beth Noble. Running time: 1 hour, 28 minutes.

                              In general release.

                              https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...126-story.html

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                              • Nicholas Ward
                                Nicholas Ward commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Ha!, there should be a seperate thread for Highlander reviews. They can be very entertaining!

                            • #91
                              I'm hoping to watch this over the weekend and see what all the fuss is about! I've seen it before obviously but so long ago...
                              JB

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                              • #92
                                Well I saw the repeated scene and noticed it straight away plus the face morph didn't bother me although Connor speaking through Duncan was a little odd considering how many people he has killed and the only time we ever saw their faces again was the dark quickening two parter of season four in a scene where all the evil immortals seemed to take control of Duncan's body!
                                JB

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                                • #93
                                  Originally posted by johnnybear View Post
                                  Well I saw the repeated scene and noticed it straight away plus the face morph didn't bother me although Connor speaking through Duncan was a little odd considering how many people he has killed and the only time we ever saw their faces again was the dark quickening two parter of season four in a scene where all the evil immortals seemed to take control of Duncan's body!
                                  JB
                                  They just didn't want to timeshare. Hahah.

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