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What's Wrong With Endgame?

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  • MidnightBlue
    replied
    It was alright, it could have been better, but it wasn't a disaster like the Source. I liked the fight sequences.

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  • Nicholas Ward
    replied
    So basically Endgame isn't bad but the order in which the scenes play out can be improved upon?

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  • dubiousbystander
    replied
    Exactly, MidnightBlue. So the showrunner thought, with what you said there, that it was impossible that Duncan had really never married.

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  • MidnightBlue
    replied
    Originally posted by dubiousbystander View Post
    To which the showrunner replied: "No one will care."
    I care!!!

    Duncan is the quintessential family man. He wants to settle down and have a family. He built a whole house for crying out loud. You see his diapering skills in some episode or another and even offered to help deliver Dr. Anne Lindsey's baby. You can envision him being quite content living the tranquil domestic life, which he did briefly with Little Deer and Kahani. I like the never marry prophesy though, I think that's the distinguishing factor between Duncan the mortal and Duncan the immortal, if he were mortal he'd definitely be married however his immortality is what dooms him to never getting what he really wants - a peaceful family life. Every mortal girl who gets entangled with him will likely meet a premature end or she will not be able to handle the fact that he's immortal. It adds a tragic element. Without that dynamic the entire show would be less interesting, who wants to watch a happy married couple? Actually, I do. Simply because it's so rare to see. But that's what keeps you watching, there's a part of you that keeps hoping it works out for him, but for the adventure to continue you know it will not.
    Last edited by MidnightBlue; 07-28-2020, 02:54 AM.

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  • Nicholas Ward
    commented on 's reply
    Your constant derogatory comments on the franchise are not wanted and are getting quite repetative.
    If you don't have anything positive to say, then don't say anything at all.

  • dubiousbystander
    replied
    Pretty certain the man wasn't thinking in terms of continuity or audience. Experience with people has taught me that he was most likely thinking, "How could anyone believe that Duncan MacLeod lived all that time without getting married? He's the marrying kind! He wanted to marry every woman he fell in love with!" Actually, I think probably "killed his wife" was not part of the dialogue.

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  • Gardner
    replied
    Originally posted by dubiousbystander View Post

    No. It is really there, at least according to Donna Lettow or Gillian Horvath, I've forgotten which, for one reason. One of the male showrunners said (and all quotes are actually paraphrasing) "I have a great idea! Duncan has a wife he killed!"
    To which one of those wonderful ladies replied, "But we made this whole big deal in the series about how he'd never been married."
    To which the showrunner replied: "No one will care."
    Voilà Dubiousbystander! This sums it up, now you understand why I reject the Highlander franchise movies and everything that goes wrong in canon. So damn inconsistent. How do you want me to respect a franchise that shows so little respect to its own continuity and to its audience ?

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  • dubiousbystander
    replied
    Originally posted by MidnightBlue View Post
    I'm trying to reconcile that gypsy prediction in the TV show about Duncan never being married, but in Endgame he marries Kate. Does it not count because he killed her on their wedding night? But he was still technically married.
    No. It is really there, at least according to Donna Lettow or Gillian Horvath, I've forgotten which, for one reason. One of the male showrunners said (and all quotes are actually paraphrasing) "I have a great idea! Duncan has a wife he killed!"
    To which one of those wonderful ladies replied, "But we made this whole big deal in the series about how he'd never been married."
    To which the showrunner replied: "No one will care."

    Leave a comment:


  • MidnightBlue
    replied
    I'm trying to reconcile that gypsy prediction in the TV show about Duncan never being married, but in Endgame he marries Kate. Does it not count because he killed her on their wedding night? But he was still technically married.

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  • somecallmejames
    replied
    While the script is horrible, the editing does not help. So, here are the top 10 editing fails in Highlander Endgame:

    1: The final fight: The final battle between Duncan and Kell does not work in either main cut (and barley in workprint), here's why:

    Theatrical: Duncan and Kell are in a pipe room, then suddenly their on a catwalk, then Duncan falls onto the ground and somehow their outside and Duncan's without his coat (and I don't understand either). There's some terrible facemorphing, Duncan and Kell keep changing positions between cuts and Kell is killed.

    Producer: Duncan and Kell are in a pipe room, then suddenly their on a catwalk, then Duncan falls onto the ground and he Kell proceed to fight some more (with a jump cut) before some small explosions separate them (with there being too many cuts). Then their in a chain room and they fight before Duncan gets away. As Duncan removes his coat, Matthew tries to shoot him, but Joe kills him instead. There's some terrible facemorphing, Duncan and Kell keep changing positions between cuts and Kell is killed.

    Workprint: Duncan and Kell are in a pipe room, then suddenly their on a catwalk, then Duncan falls onto the ground and he Kell proceed to fight some more (with no jump cut before some small explosions separate them. Then their in a chain room and they fight before Duncan gets away. As Duncan removes his coat, Kell calls out to him and then there's a camera pan to the side of the building before showing Kell and Dunan fighting. There's no facemorphing and Kell is killed.

    2: Connor's quickening: I hate everything about Connor in this movie and his death is the worst. While it plays out relativly the same in all 3 cuts, the quickening in the thatrical and producer cuts is so short, it's baffaling. In the workprint, it goes on much longer (including a throwback to the first movie).

    3: The training flashback in the thatrical and producer cuts is so choppy, it's hard to follow. It's much longer and easier to follow in the workprint.

    4: There's a deleted scene not present in any of the cuts where Duncan encounter's Bob and pins him with Connor's sword to a van before sending it crashing through the wall of Kell's temple. It explains why Kell kills his posse (in order to gain more power before fighting Duncan). Without it, it just looks like he kills them for no reason.

    5: In the thatrical and prodcuer cuts, there's no clear reason why Faith goes to Duncan to have sex with him. In the workprint, following Kate and Duncan's conversation, we see a nice montage of both Duncan and Kate walking the streets separately, both clearly pondering the conversation they had with each other. We see Kate start to think about what she is doing. She walks into the temple, she greets Kell and says "no not tonight, I'm tired." There, an establishment of at least a sexual relationship.

    What follows is a conversation on a balcony of this huge temple, that Kate mentions is still in construction. They then talk about the Game, the Quickening, Kell'smotivations, and Kate and the rest's part in all of it. The conversation ends quite strikingly. Kell asks Kate "Do you know what LIVE spelled backwards is?" She responds, "Live would be Evil, but LIVED would be..." She turns, and Kell is gone.

    Kate then imagines and thinks back to:

    A longer and better version of the highwaymen scene. There is actual humor, as the highwaymen play off of each other, as do Duncan and Connor. At one point we see the highwaymen draw their swords as they think Duncan is smart to their ways, but they quickly shield their swords as Duncan indulges them. When they actually fight, there is nice interaction between Connor and Duncan, who sits on his butt and critiques Connor's technique as Connor finishes off the last two highwaymen. There's also a longer wedding celebration sequence, where we see a drunk yell at
    Duncan to "kiss her!!!", who happily obliges.

    NOW WE ACTUALLY KNOW WHY KATE GOES TO VISIT DUNCAN, she remembers the good old times and hopes to recapture the feelings to those memories.

    6: In the workprint, The fight scene between Duncan and Kell's goons is much better. Each henchman gets a short intro, then they all make cracks toward Duncan, who returns the shots, even making fun of Cracker Bob's outfit, who then complains about it to Kate...who sort of shrugs. What follows is an INCREDIBLE fight scene, cleanly edited, much more coherent, and about 2 minutes longer. We see Duncan cut and beat up all of Kell's henchman good and decisively, and see a nice longer scene of Duncan battling off all of them from the stairs. We also see Cracker Bob pull the bat out of his head...ouch. You can actually tell what is going on, and the goons double and triple team a lot more, so the choreography is much more complex than what ended up in the other cuts.

    7: In the workrint: When Duncan is strapped to the chair, Matthew explains why and how Kell is so powerful. Why any of this was cut is besides me, as it nicely explains his power.

    8: There's a deleted scene where Jin and Faith talk. It provides some interesting dialogue between the characters.

    9: In the theatrical cut, it's never explain how Duncan gets his sword back. There's a short scene shwoing it in producer cut and the workprint.

    10: The Last Supper: This scene is horrible in the theatircal cut because the posse just stare while kell kills everyone. The producer cut version is the same, but Faith survives. Even though the shot of her beads falling to the floor is still there and her dead body is still on the floor!?

    In the workprint, Kell does a surprise attack that kill 3 of the posse. Jin kills himself and then Kell tells Faith to leave (and the video quality is too low to see if Faith's dead body is still there, even though the scene of her and Duncan reconciling after the final fight is absent).


    It's a mess no matter how you look at it. It would be interesting to have access to the shooting script to try and figure out exactly was originally intended and how much was potential reshoots (e.g. was Faith supposed to live or die).

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  • Nicholas Ward
    replied
    I take a liking to Quickenings that display traits of the person killed. So I like the Kurgans, Kells, Larca's and Wilson Gearys after my own obviously.
    Last edited by Nicholas Ward; 02-22-2020, 01:36 AM.

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  • Aleander
    replied
    Originally posted by Nicholas Ward View Post
    Highlander and Endgame have the better final Quickenings though.
    Good God no - not Endgame. Edngame's just generic, low-budget bullshit.

    IMO, the best Quickenings in the movies are the Kurgan, Corda (the one with the walking Quickening that hits a few beer cans first), Khan and Kane Quickenings. Everything else is lesser.

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  • Hatter76
    replied
    Obviously no serious filming was done is Scotland, aside from a Lambert double on a Horse, ariel shots being very beautiful Stock Footage, the actual Footage of Connor and Heather being shot in Romania, the very noticeably flat land and bare sky cropped out of the final film, but clearly shot in a way indicating that Scotland would be digitally added in

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  • Hatter76
    replied
    Have recently decided to dust off my goal of making various improvements to Endgame, certainly editorially, but notably, Visually. such as Deaging Christopher Lambert , as well as some some unsatisfying things like Connor's Quickening, some things during the Climax, something very much important to me is to include Scotland in a way that appears to have been intended, but not done. this current Work is only in Progress

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  • Andrew NDB
    replied
    Originally posted by Colin MacLeod View Post
    Endgame final jump. Improved scene.
    https://coub.com/view/16a7mz
    Without the original to compare against, what did you change there?

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  • Colin MacLeod
    replied
    Endgame final jump. Improved scene.
    https://coub.com/view/16a7mz

    Leave a comment:


  • Coolwater
    commented on 's reply
    It's not that Duncan doesn't kill. He kills in self-protection and he kills when he thinks it is a moral or practical necessity. Even then, he always talks first ("We don't have to do this."). If the film were better written, Duncan would have explained Kate/Faith's situation to her and demonstrated his own immortality to her. He might have forced the first death on her (women had NO rights and even a mortal husband could usually get away with killing his wife), but he'd have explained it to her first.
    And once she had been killed and reborn, Duncan would have had a legal right and expectation that she couldn't just run off. he'd have gone after her.

  • LizzyB
    replied
    Originally posted by Andrew NDB View Post

    But why? Just curious. So many "friends" of Duncan and so on have come by Duncan's own hand in the series itself.
    Katie's death just feels like selfishness on Duncan's part and arrogance and while he's almost certainly displayed these traits previously (I say almost because it's been a long time since I had a rewatch and my memory is hazy, especially on the latter seasons), this just feels like more than someone being a bit self-centred, he shows little or no understanding of how Kate might process the news of her potential immortality, he doesn't even seem to consider telling her, he just makes a decision that has far reaching consequences.
    Last edited by LizzyB; 08-09-2017, 12:34 PM.

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  • dubiousbystander
    replied
    The Kate thing seems just written for the sake of drama. Also, "Oh noes, if they don't suffer a violent death they won't become Immortal!" being long known by most folks was just too out of the blue.

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  • Andrew NDB
    replied
    Originally posted by LizzyB View Post

    Yeah, Duncan killing Kate is a problem for me too, it just seems so out of character. It's one of the two big faults I see with Endgame (the other is the death of Connor. I felt like that was done purely for shock value - "Ooh I know, let's kill off the main character of the series! No one will see it coming!" I once attempted to rewrite Endgame so Connor didn't die, but I didn't get very far. Might go back to it one day if I can get the file back). The other things are smaller issues - I'd have incapacitated Rachel, rather than killing her outright and Methos could have had a bigger part, stuff like that - but the two big ones for me are Connor and Kate's deaths at Duncan's hands.
    But why? Just curious. So many "friends" of Duncan and so on have come by Duncan's own hand in the series itself.

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  • LizzyB
    replied
    Originally posted by Aleander View Post
    Well, Culloden makes sense enough, as he's left Scotland, but visits Ireland because of how it reminds him of his home... I'd argue killing Kate is the breaking point for him, the point where he abandons even his Scots accent after this, and truly becomes a man of the world like his mentor.

    But yeah, Duncan killing Kate out of the blue is still very uncharacteristic of him. At any age.
    Yeah, Duncan killing Kate is a problem for me too, it just seems so out of character. It's one of the two big faults I see with Endgame (the other is the death of Connor. I felt like that was done purely for shock value - "Ooh I know, let's kill off the main character of the series! No one will see it coming!" I once attempted to rewrite Endgame so Connor didn't die, but I didn't get very far. Might go back to it one day if I can get the file back). The other things are smaller issues - I'd have incapacitated Rachel, rather than killing her outright and Methos could have had a bigger part, stuff like that - but the two big ones for me are Connor and Kate's deaths at Duncan's hands.

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  • Coolwater
    commented on 's reply
    Connor would have to tattoo "fun!" on his arm!

  • dubiousbystander
    replied
    Giggling. Andrew's Connor & Duncan show addresses that. Connor introduces himself, and the women fall all over him. Duncan introduces himself, and the women are iffy. Methos introduces himself and can't get a word out before the women adore him. Or am I remembering that that quite correctly? Probably not...

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  • Tootsie Bee
    replied
    Another continuity error introduced by this film: when the elder Highlander introduces himself to Duncan in the flashback by saying, "I'm Connor MacLeod of the clan MacLeod," we don't immediately cut to a passionate blue-lit love scene. That's a basic failure to stick to the franchise formula up to that point. The Power of Seduction is an essential part of Connor's character in the first three films.

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  • Aleander
    replied
    Not really. He was more shocked Duncan jumped with the precision he did.

    God, I hate that moment.

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