The Multiverse

[Nicholas Ward]

The Highlander Universe is a multiverse in which an immortal winning the Prize in his dimension, results in that immortal being reborn in another parallel dimension.
The Game, the Gathering and 'There can be only one' apply per dimension but also to a much larger scale.

[Andrew NDB]

I don't think there is this active, flourishing "Multiverse" in the same way we think of one in something like DC or Marvel, where there is actively and intentionally other similar worlds out there that can be crossed over into, etc., but there is to a certain extent.

The Highlander expanded universe: H1*, H3*+**, H:TS, H:TR, H4, H5**, H:TAS**, H:TSFV** + books, all comics*+**, audio plays
The Highlander "Prime" universe: H1, "Way of the Sword" & "The American Dream" prequel comic, H3**

That's it. Those are really the only two ones that appear to produce anything independent of one another decades into things now.

Abandoned/retconned-away-from-continuity universes...

The alternate Highlander sequelverse I: H1, H2
The alternate Highlander sequelverse II: H1, H3

*: retconning any mention of them being the last Immortals, any Prize being won, or the Gathering directly taking place or having took place.
**: Optional.

I am certain Aleander will have a strong opinion on this matter.

[Aleander]

Its not a multiverse in design. Its rather a multiverse by willful ignorance. Nobody will ever convince me Davis and Panzer willfully designed the stories to fit or NOT fit together. Back on the Rysher boards, the story the TPTB promoted was that the show was on "alternative" universe or something (I don't want to say universe, cause I think they didn't use that term then) from the first film, saying only some of it occurred. Which is fine. It was the 90's, we can't expect lavish and strict continuity from a show that loosely follows one of the films with the most airtight, definitive endings in cinema history.

That being said, Andrew's got it, for the most part, to its bare essentials. However, looking at most things, I think its technically, strictly technically, like this:

* HL1, HL2 (cause Brenda died in '95, and Kane came back very definitively in '94)
* The Series, The Tie-in Novels, The Raven, Endgame, The Source, The Comics (sans two mini-series specified by Andrew), Big Finish's Audio Plays, That 2008 Minisode, the Fan Films and the Methos web-series. And any elements of the first film that don't contradict the show (like, well, the Gathering taking place), and since the comics' release, arguable inclusion of the third film, with the same tactic as used in the first film.
* HL1, HL3 (cause it ignores Brenda's death from 2, and the Ozone Layer depletion)
* TAS, and any elements of the of the first film that don't contradict the show (like, well, the Gathering taking place)
* The Search for Vengeance

If I have a comment on the above, I'd say that, despite Endgame and the Source, the second's one the most favorite for me, simply because it stayed with me the longest. The third though fifth years of the show is just a great run, with ups and downs, sure, but a great run nonetheless.

In all of them, its fair to say that the Gathering, the Game and Prize are uniformly the same, although the show took its liberties, and rightfully so, to make the Immortals more human in both appearance and demeanor. In the first film, for instance, Immortals don't actually die when shot to death, they just sustain that damage, whereas they definitely die in the Series and onwards. Which, again, totally makes sense for the show.

From then on, its whatever works for anyone. The franchise is so "free" and loose in its terms of continuity and canonicity, that I even remember David A. arguing that "each film is its own universe", which from a certain point of view, IS true. I mean, Endgame does take liberties that dovetail the show's canonical rules (like Duncan never marrying) and the Source... well, its the Source. Nuff said. But what I mean is, its maybe the only franchise that invites fanon, because there's no strong voice in the matter, like a Rick Berman for Star Trek TNG-ENT or the like.

[Andrew NDB]

Its not a multiverse in design. Its rather a multiverse by willful ignorance. Nobody will ever convince me Davis and Panzer willfully designed the stories to fit or NOT fit together.

Agreed.

* The Series, The Tie-in Novels, The Raven, Endgame, The Source, The Comics (sans two mini-series specified by Andrew), Big Finish's Audio Plays, That 2008 Minisode, the Fan Films and the Methos web-series. And any elements of the first film that don't contradict the show (like, well, the Gathering taking place), and since the comics' release, arguable inclusion of the third film, with the same tactic as used in the first film.

No matter what, though, you don't have to put H3 in there (although it's a rather harmless addition) but you absolutely have to put some version of H1 in there. We know it happened because they told us it happened in the series.

* HL1, HL3 (cause it ignores Brenda's death from 2, and the Ozone Layer depletion)

Right.

* TAS, and any elements of the of the first film that don't contradict the show (like, well, the Gathering taking place)

You COULD put it in the expanded universe timeline, it's an option (remember the whole thing about, "What if Connor II from The Source is actually the Connor in the beginning of TAS?"). I wouldn't personally, but you could. It would organically work with the H1, H2 universe except for... where did all those extra Immortals come from that became Jettators and all that? Connor is alone again at the end of every version of H2.

So TAS is either on an island by itself or in the expanded timeline.

* The Search for Vengeance

Probably best on its own, but it COULD fit in the expanded universe timeline. Or sort of messily into a singular universe shared with TAS.

From then on, its whatever works for anyone. The franchise is so "free" and loose in its terms of continuity and canonicity, that I even remember David A. arguing that "each film is its own universe", which from a certain point of view, IS true.

He did say that, I was there when he did. He didn't, of course, have anything to do with any of the movies beyond his rejected script for "The Source."

I mean, Endgame does take liberties that dovetail the show's canonical rules (like Duncan never marrying)

"You will never marry!" said the gypsy, a century AFTER he'd already married Kate and become estranged. The gypsy was correct, he never did marry after that. Until Anna, that is, and/or whoever that lady was that Duncan was marrying in "Reunion" (which David himself wrote, breaking his own gypsy prophecy... if even he didn't put any stock in it, I don't know why so many fans did).

and the Source... well, its the Source. Nuff said. But what I mean is, its maybe the only franchise that invites fanon, because there's no strong voice in the matter, like a Rick Berman for Star Trek TNG-ENT or the like.

There kind of is now. There's good folks at Davis with pretty sound minds about the franchise.

[Aleander]

Agreed.

Panzer: Oh-oh. Andrew and Aleander agreed on something. I must be... coming. Back! Who the Apocalypse would come at a summer?

No matter what, though, you don't have to put H3 in there (although it's a rather harmless addition) but you absolutely have to put some version of H1 in there. We know it happened because they told us it happened in the series.

Indeed, its only after the comics that refer and show Kane in the Kurgan origin mini-series and even refer to the unused character Thomas Cavanaugh. The show itself has absolutely never referenced it (and its a big mistake they didn't, cause that requel could've served the show in so many ways).

Right.

Its also odd that Brenda has the most purposeful death than any other character in the movies. Her death triggers Connor's motivation to help the world and build the Shield. Not even Kate from Endgame has much actual plot relevance other than to bang Duncan and retcon him into a homicidal jerk.

You COULD put it in the expanded universe timeline, it's an option (remember the whole thing about, "What if Connor II from The Source is actually the Connor in the beginning of TAS?"). I wouldn't personally, but you could. It would organically work with the H1, H2 universe except for... where did all those extra Immortals come from that became Jettators and all that? Connor is alone again at the end of every version of H2.

I place it in the Series-verse, myself, following a HUMAN version of the Source (I'm sure someone at Stormark Productions has some idea of what I'm talking about) that allows for Connor II to be a character. All its missing, really, is a final episode to cap off the Series-verse, once and for all.

And then, Methos of Moganda.

So TAS is either on an island by itself or in the expanded timeline.

To this day, I've no idea what they were thinking with TAS. Like 3, it seems to have D/P's names on it but without any actual say on it. Why?

Probably best on its own, but it COULD fit in the expanded universe timeline. Or sort of messily into a singular universe shared with TAS.

Its a more "realistic" future than TAS, though. And I would rather place it in its own reality, probably because its best to the number of MacLeods as protagonists in any given universe to a minimum.

He did say that, I was there when he did. He didn't, of course, have anything to do with any of the movies beyond his rejected script for "The Source."

Well, he did like to say he was the other half of a parentual duo comprising of himself and Panzer. But I digress.

"You will never marry!" said the gypsy, a century AFTER he'd already married Kate and become estranged. The gypsy was correct, he never did marry after that. Until Anna, that is, and/or whoever that lady was that Duncan was marrying in "Reunion" (which David himself wrote, breaking his own gypsy prophecy... if even he didn't put any stock in it, I don't know why so many fans did).

True, but its not an illogical mistake to make. The gypsy would've worded it differently if she HAD seen that he was married anyway. Overall, it depends to how much stock you put to it - but to the show's writers, it was a bible rule: Duncan never married. And thus, didn't LIE to Richie, which retconningly he is now.

There kind of is now. There's good folks at Davis with pretty sound minds about the franchise.

Well, we'll just have to wait and see.

[Andrew NDB]

Panzer: Oh-oh. Andrew and Aleander agreed on something. I must be... coming. Back! Who the Apocalypse would come at a summer?

I've got good news, Aleander. That gum you like? It's coming back in style!

Indeed, its only after the comics that refer and show Kane in the Kurgan origin mini-series and even refer to the unused character Thomas Cavanaugh. The show itself has absolutely never referenced it (and its a big mistake they didn't, cause that requel could've served the show in so many ways).

True, though it's not like there was any place in the show for H3 references.

I place it in the Series-verse, myself, following a HUMAN version of the Source (I'm sure someone at Stormark Productions has some idea of what I'm talking about) that allows for Connor II to be a character. All its missing, really, is a final episode to cap off the Series-verse, once and for all.

And then, Methos of Moganda.

Do we still have that saved somewhere? And MoZ?

[Aleander]

I've got good news, Aleander. That gum you like? It's coming back in style!

Now, or after 25 years?

True, though it's not like there was any place in the show for H3 references.

Well, that episode in season 3 that had all those Watchers playing poker would've been a good place for it, methinks...

Do we still have that saved somewhere? And MoZ?

You have to you-know-who.

[Andrew NDB]

Now, or after 25 years?

1992 to 2017... that's 25 years right there.

Well, that episode in season 3 that had all those Watchers playing poker would've been a good place for it, methinks...

Would have been neat, but it would seem a little fan-servicey.

You have to you-know-who.

You mean ask TOOT?

[Nicholas Ward]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/HLBB...xoaWdobGFuZGVy

Déjà vu..

So far TMNT hasn't been mentioned yet...

[Aleander]

1992 to 2017... that's 25 years right there.

Bill Panzer will be pleased, at the White Lodge.

Would have been neat, but it would seem a little fan-servicey.

And promotional. Remember, its Highlander. Any promotion is better than none. DS9 referenced First Contact and there was no harm there, either.

You mean ask TOOT?

Tootsie-Bee, yes.

[Tootsie Bee]

It's a multiverse in the sense that not everything fits into the same fictional universe. Highlander II is the only film that really takes the first film's ending seriously, and since even TAS and The Search for Vengeance show us flashbacks set before 2024, they're not fitting into the original timeline any more than the TV series is.

Strictly speaking, those animated stories could take place after Highlander III, since that film establishes that Connor is a complete idiot who only thinks that he won the Prize. If Colin MacLeod, the Jettators, and anybody else just happened to be hanging out in a magic cave from 1985 to 1994, they're potential members of the H3 timeline. I mean, even The Source could be in that continuity on a technicality! (That's assuming, of course, that the Duncan, Joe, and Methos we see in that movie led drastically different lives than the ones from the TV series, which is admittedly not the filmmakers' intention but hypothetically possible.)

The TV show's story, along with its surrounding media and film sequels, is obviously the timeline that received the most attention, but I don't think that it's in a position to consider itself the "only" canonical universe, especially with some of the recent comic book spinoffs just flat-out ignoring it.

[dubiousbystander]

I could retcon the marriage thing as: the gypsy is looking at a very long marriage line, and the length of time between the marriage to Kate and "now" was more than a mortal life time…. Or wait, I can't remember how long it was… and anyway, then the length of time to the marriage to Anna is far too long…

[Colleengael]

Carmen the gypsy was just saying Duncan would never marry out of spite because he would not marry her. No real look into his future or his past.

[Aleander]

Which directly contradicts Duncan's own belief that he is curse. He genuinely guilts himself based on that flashback that had him not marrying ever. If he didn't think it was important, he wouldn't remember it, and we wouldn't discuss it still.

[Nicholas Ward]

On the other hand why does he keep trying to marry then? If he believes the curse is true, he is damning the women involved.

[Aleander]

Well, because he thinks he outruned it? He's not a superstitious man to a religious degree, but he's also mindful. Maybe, he thought, being with a woman for over a decade was proof for him that he break that spell. But only after this misfortune happens to her that he considers that flashback.

Besides, I don't think he's tried to get married a lot throughout the show. In fact, he's adamant not to. Its in the movies that this mistake occurs.

[Nicholas Ward]

He wanted to marry Debra, Tessa, Anna and Sarah. 1 girl for every mortal lifetime. The curse is later than a few but he definitely tries to get married a lot.
It's like the letter K for villains, ending with 'a' for Duncans girlfriends means it won't end pretty.

[Aleander]

Debra doesn't count because it cocured before the gypsy's reading, although Duncan could be blaming himself for that subconsciously through that filter.

So he tried twice. And the first didn't occur because she was already married.

[Nicholas Ward]

If only Debra doesn't count doesn't that make 3?

[dubiousbystander]

Really, now, dead horse here... a mortal gypsy is reading his "marriage" line, thinking he's a mortal man. Simplest answer: He would not be getting married, and had not married, within a mortal lifetime. Not a curse, just what she "sees".

[Coolwater]

Could you add another option?
O Huh?

Honestly, though, I think you'll only give yourself a head ache if you insist on forcing the various story lines to fit one another. It's a multiverse by virtue of the first film having a finale, and later by unprepared writing. I think at some point you have to say, HL1 is in a world of its own because it ends and HL2 doesn't patch that problem up well. In HL3 Connor is not an omniscient being, so that is on it's own, too. The series mostly fits together, especially if you take all the magic crap out. No witches, no curses, no Ahriman, no ESP by an insane person, etc. (Think of this as the Jefferson Bible of Highlander.) And so on. When a fictional universe is created, it's a mistake to change the rules by which it operates, and it has always seemed to me that HL works best when we have immortals living in an otherwise real world. IMO, of course.

[Andrew NDB]

Honestly, though, I think you'll only give yourself a head ache if you insist on forcing the various story lines to fit one another.

It really, really isn't, though, beyond the really out-there stuff like TAS or the stuff that simply can't fit (H2).

[Aleander]

Coolwater does have a point. Nothing really fits with the first film, except the second one. They all look at parts of it, not the whole.

[Nicholas Ward]

What if we disregard the first film then?

[Aleander]

The Series already is large chunks of it. Like what the hell is the Kurgan doing in NYC? Sure, he could be looking for "the ones that got away" but... its a theory. An explanation provided academically. Realistically, the show doesn't follow the first film at all. Figuratively, sure, as it acknowledges a lot of that film (mostly doing so to bait the existing fans to tune in for the show). But as a matter of story, and concept (the show's immortals are not as impervious to pain as the film's), they're not a match.