When did the first immortal appear?

[Nicholas Ward]

If we take what we know from the Source, the first immortal would be way older than Methos. Because Methos is almost 5200 years old (see: reunion) and the Elder was an immortal searching for the Source 10,000 years ago. That would imply that immortals fought and beheaded each other long before that event, just to justify the accumulation of knowledge needed of the Source (which could then be lost due to described events).
If however we take other rules into account (no fighting on holy ground), we could argue that, if those rules were active from the beginning, certain qualifications have to be met. Therefore he or she is unlikely to be a million years old. The oldest known evidence of human burial (and with that possibly a sense of higher powers) are roughly 300,000 years old. That would put the first immortal in the Neanderthal time frame. (This was hinted at in 'the beast below' episode of the Highlander TV series as well). So between 200,000 BCE to around 40,000 BCE but probably closer to the latter than the former.


When do you think immortality manifested?

[Coolwater]

No idea, but it's unlikely that the Game started prior to bronze blades. Can't you imagine whacking off a head with a stone blade?

[Nicholas Ward]

No idea, but it's unlikely that the Game started prior to bronze blades. Can't you imagine whacking off a head with a stone blade?

It would be hard indeed but not unheard of. Head hunting as a practise by tribes is documented all over the globe. Although I can't find when it originated.
From wikipedia: "Some experts theorize that the practice stemmed from the belief that the head contained "soul matter" or life force, which could be harnessed through its capture."

Also in the audio books there were mentions of large numbers of immortals in ancient times, enough to form an army exclusively with them.
The reason might be that they simply didn't have the tools yet to play the Game like you suggest.

[dubiousbystander]

Don't forget that in the audiobooks you can get at the Quickening through the brain.

[Andrew NDB]

If you imagine Immortals have been around since the beginning... then they've been around before organized religion or "Holy Grounds" of any kind. Makes you wonder their initial baby steps to develop and "figure out" (or invent) the Game.

[Nicholas Ward]

Don't forget that in the audiobooks you can get at the Quickening through the brain.

True, manipulation of the Quickening is something astounding but since Quickenings transfer knowledge (memories?) subjects can be manipulated, brainwashed and broken to make them susceptible to false memories.

If you imagine Immortals have been around since the beginning... then they've been around before organized religion or "Holy Grounds" of any kind. Makes you wonder their initial baby steps to develop and "figure out" (or invent) the Game.

If that would be true then surely the earliest could be when the genus homo manifested (still a whopping 2,5 million years ago), otherwise the road to immortal animals is wide open and there's no evidence for that. Immortal Bigfoot would be an option though.

It does beg the question:
What came first: Holy ground or the Game?

[dubiousbystander]

Well, you're also asking when they appeared. That's not the same as them being old. Richie, after all, died quite young.

[Nicholas Ward]

Well, you're also asking when they appeared. That's not the same as them being old. Richie, after all, died quite young.

I did ask that indeed. Because If immortals were around far earlier than the bronze age, a paradox similar to the Fermiparadox would exist.
After all, where are all those immortals? Did the four horsemen cull them all, did warlord Darius or the ancient Parisian?

It's statistically likely they emerged during human evolution but there's simply no evidence for it whatsoever.

[Nicholas Ward]

There is another possibility that might have been hinted at in the introduction of the original movie:

"From the dawn of time we came;


So from that wecould argue that the point where the first immortals started to appear is, when we started to keep track of time. Which would be between 8.000 and 18.000 BCE.
Although a bit of a silly premise, the timeframe is near the end of the cro-magnon era which seems anatomical identical to modern man.

[dubiousbystander]

We could be back simply to that they didn't appear. That they were made, through technological or magical means, in a manner that is still functioning. Perhaps some ancient device now buried deep beneath the sea, intended to drop spies in the midst of enemy nations that no one would ever know were spies...

[Nicholas Ward]

Like an alien probe?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1154...9987286714842/

[dubiousbystander]

Perhaps alien, perhaps domestic! Like the thing about Holy Ground. The Immortals go to Holy Ground where they are "debriefed" by a priest or someone posing as a priest... After all, confession is good for the soul...

[dubiousbystander]

Also in the audio books there were mentions of large numbers of immortals in ancient times, enough to form an army exclusively with them.
The reason might be that they simply didn't have the tools yet to play the Game like you suggest.

Actually, as I recently listened to the audiobook, I beg to differ. Karniel had assembled an army of Immortals, but there were only 200 of them. Possibly 199, I'm unclear on whether Karniel was part of the count. He was supposed to be incredibly ancient, and they were so ravening mad they didn't even notice other Immortals as they ran over them on horseback.

Now, it sounded as though Caspian's Immortals numbered twenty, again is that with Caspian too, and they were of varying ages. Dilijan was one of them, so was Gelanti.

[Nicholas Ward]

Only 200? In times where travel would take a long time that is an astonishing number. Especially if you take into consideration that overcoming natural barriers like mountain ranges, rivers and oceans would be nearly impossible then.

But in that story might lie a partial answer to the question about what happened to all the ancient immortals.

[dubiousbystander]

Yes. Karniel was supposed to be so old that his jaw was differently formed and he couldn't speak current language well. Again, though, in a few weeks Caspian had pulled together twenty (or nineteen) other Immortals among the people fleeing ahead of Karniel's marauders. Two hundred is still a very small number, and to remind you, Kell was supposed to have taken 665 heads before Duncan took his.

[TheWolfEmperor]

If you imagine Immortals have been around since the beginning... then they've been around before organized religion or "Holy Grounds" of any kind. Makes you wonder their initial baby steps to develop and "figure out" (or invent) the Game.

I've always thought that Holy Ground has to be a mutual agreement because not everyone is Christian but we all agree that churches and cemeteries are sacred places. Duncan has a cabin on ground that Pre-Columbian Americans consider sacred. And Amanda's night club and Nick's office in Paris is apparently built at the site of some Roman temple, because Amanda's husband wouldn't attack her there.

And the idea of holy or sacred places goes back further than the idea of a pantheon of deities.

[Nicholas Ward]

Yes. Karniel was supposed to be so old that his jaw was differently formed and he couldn't speak current language well. Again, though, in a few weeks Caspian had pulled together twenty (or nineteen) other Immortals among the people fleeing ahead of Karniel's marauders. Two hundred is still a very small number, and to remind you, Kell was supposed to have taken 665 heads before Duncan took his.

True but Kell had access to fairly modern ways of travel compared to Karniel.

[dubiousbystander]

True but Kell had access to fairly modern ways of travel compared to Karniel.

I suppose. I mean, we have no idea how many of those heads were taken in recent times. However, that is SIX HUNDRED. I don't think that bandit gang of 200 Immortals was really that hard to gather up. It might have taken about a hundred years.

[Nicholas Ward]

You have a point there. Time was at their side

[dubiousbystander]

Yes it was! Hahah, now I've that song in my head.

[Nicholas Ward]

Yes. Karniel was supposed to be so old that his jaw was differently formed and he couldn't speak current language well.

The question with this would be: was his deformation an individual trait or a characteristic of his species?
If the former: that tells us nothing, if the latter then he is possibly from the homo erectus species and that could put him as far back as 1,8 million years.

[Andrew NDB]

I've always thought that Holy Ground has to be a mutual agreement because not everyone is Christian but we all agree that churches and cemeteries are sacred places.

There is another option. That consequences for killing another Immortal on Holy Ground aren't a real thing and never were.

[dubiousbystander]

There is another option. That consequences for killing another Immortal on Holy Ground aren't a real thing and never were.

That's my thought. I still believe they've a subconscious urge to not kill on Holy Ground, since it extends to mortals, too.

[Nicholas Ward]

We know from the audiobook and comics that they can sense holy ground.
Even if there were no consequences, the fact that they sense holy ground might be enough not to try it and keep the myth alive

[dubiousbystander]

We know from the audiobook and comics that they can sense holy ground.
Even if there were no consequences, the fact that they sense holy ground might be enough not to try it and keep the myth alive

Except that's not exactly a "fact" even by Highlander standards.

[Nicholas Ward]

Which "facts" are?

[dubiousbystander]

That if they can sense holy ground, since you're cherry-picking here, Kane would have known they were on holy ground in HL3. Also, they really would have shown that in the series at one point.

[dubiousbystander]

In both cases, we're looking at something made up outside of the series, and in the case of the audiobooks particularly, by people who barely knew it anyway.

[Nicholas Ward]

And the stories still got approved.

[dubiousbystander]

Quite frankly, I don't think they did get approved. I think no one bothered, just accepted the money and perhaps thought "Good luck with that."

[Darth Reaper]

I like to think that Immortals and The Game have existed for nearly as long as humanity has. I kinda like to think that there were once Neanderthal men fighting each other. I’ve even played with the idea of an Immortal character who is a Neanderthal.

[Nicholas Ward]

Ursa??????

[Darth Reaper]

He’s from the tv series right? Assuming that I’m thinking of the same character you are, he’s not the one that I was imagining as a Neanderthal Man.

[dubiousbystander]

I like to think that Immortals and The Game have existed for nearly as long as humanity has. I kinda like to think that there were once Neanderthal men fighting each other. I’ve even played with the idea of an Immortal character who is a Neanderthal.

I just want it well-written.