Star Trek: Strange New Worlds

[Cyrus The Great]

I am currently watching the first season. It tells the story of the Enterprise and its crew a number of years before The Original Series time frame. In this series, Christopher Pike is captain of the ship. Other characters, familiar to TOS fans, include Dr. M'Binga (ship's doctor and Vulcan specialist), Nurse Chapel, Spock (as science officer), T'Pring (Spock's girlfriend who refused to marry him in TOS), and Uhura (here she is just a Star Fleet Academy cadet doing an internship, but she manages to show her brilliance numerous times).

Overall, I am finding the show very entertaining, however, some aspects of the show are heavily retconned when compared to The Original Series story. For example, Spock and T'Pring have a number of very intimate interactions. The TOS version of their relationship was very different. Another example involves the Gorn. This alien species plays a big part in several episodes, but in TOS, they were basically unknown until Captain Kirk had to fight one to the death.

Well, I don't want to give too many spoilers. If you have seen this show, please chime in with your thoughts.

[n107]

I'm really loving SNW. It's not perfect, but it's highly entertaining, has a great cast and gives some of the most Star Trekiest stories that we've had in years. I think season 1 started off very strong and just got better and better. The second season had a couple of moments that didn't grab my attention as much but the season overall was extremely enjoyable. I especially loved the crossover episode. I'm currently in my rewatch with a couple of episodes to go and now I'm inspired to hurry and finish them.

I will say that I'm not sure why they picked the Gorn for the enemy especially considering how different they are from the TOS. But as far as retcons go, they sort of cover why things are different in an episode of season 2. That's good enough for me (though it still doesn't fully explain the Gorn).

[Cyrus The Great]

Hi n107,

I'm glad you are enjoying SNW. I finished season 2 a few days ago. I really enjoyed the episode that started and ended with animated characters. The guy who was a fanboy of Spock was pretty funny. Were the young animated characters from the future part of the Lower Decks series (which I haven't seen yet)? I also really enjoyed the musical episode. The actors who play La'an and Uhura both have amazing voices! The funniest part for me was the Klingons singing and dancing on the bridge of their ship. Season 2 had a lot more about the Gorn. The way they reproduce is truly hideous! I really hated the way that Hemmer died. I liked the scenes that he and Uhura had together. Overall, season 2 was strong and keeps me interested in seeing what's next.

[n107]

Hi n107,

I'm glad you are enjoying SNW. I finished season 2 a few days ago. I really enjoyed the episode that started and ended with animated characters. The guy who was a fanboy of Spock was pretty funny. Were the young animated characters from the future part of the Lower Decks series (which I haven't seen yet)? I also really enjoyed the musical episode. The actors who play La'an and Uhura both have amazing voices! The funniest part for me was the Klingons singing and dancing on the bridge of their ship. Season 2 had a lot more about the Gorn. The way they reproduce is truly hideous! I really hated the way that Hemmer died. I liked the scenes that he and Uhura had together. Overall, season 2 was strong and keeps me interested in seeing what's next.

Yes, those were the two leads of the Lower Decks series. I really like Lower Decks even though it has probably the worst first episode of any Trek series. Turned me off completely and it took 6 months of a friend urging me to give it a second chance before I came back. It got increasingly better after that first episode. A lot of people online say the same thing about how much they disliked the first episode. But honestly it becomes really good and just fun all around.

The musical episode was amazing. I loved Kirk's reaction to it at the beginning. Season 2 was a great continuation of the first season and I'm glad season 3 is on the way. I really need to know how the cliffhanger gets resolved.

I agree with you about Hemmer's death. I hated it. Not just the fact that he died, which was bad enough, but they seemed to really force his death. Like there should have been at least a half dozen ways to try to save him, but they artificially stretched out his "heroic" demise. Really didn't care for that.

Have you watched Star Trek: Picard yet? I have a lot to say (and complain) about it but the final season was pure gold for this old Trekkie.

[Cyrus The Great]

Yes, those were the two leads of the Lower Decks series. I really like Lower Decks even though it has probably the worst first episode of any Trek series. Turned me off completely and it took 6 months of a friend urging me to give it a second chance before I came back. It got increasingly better after that first episode. A lot of people online say the same thing about how much they disliked the first episode. But honestly it becomes really good and just fun all around.

The musical episode was amazing. I loved Kirk's reaction to it at the beginning. Season 2 was a great continuation of the first season and I'm glad season 3 is on the way. I really need to know how the cliffhanger gets resolved.

I agree with you about Hemmer's death. I hated it. Not just the fact that he died, which was bad enough, but they seemed to really force his death. Like there should have been at least a half dozen ways to try to save him, but they artificially stretched out his "heroic" demise. Really didn't care for that.

Have you watched Star Trek: Picard yet? I have a lot to say (and complain) about it but the final season was pure gold for this old Trekkie.

I'm glad you told me about Ep.1 of Lower Decks. I'll be sure to hang in there for the later episodes.

I have watched all three seasons of Picard. I had a few problems with season 1, but the show seemed to improve in the second season, and was even better in the third. My favorite part of season 3 was the addition of Picard's son Jack to the story. I really like the actor who played Jack. I have seen him do very good work on some other shows previously. The synthetic character who included Data, Lal, B4, Lore, and one of the Soong mad scientists was fun and interesting, but I really wondered why Lore was included. How could Lore's evil existence improve the personality of the combined synthetic? The fight for dominance between Lore and Data was dramatic, but I didn't enjoy it. The ultimate result seemed to be a very reasonable being with a bent toward doing good deeds, but what happened to the Lore component? I kept waiting for his "Mr. Hyde" aspect to emerge and do something really bad.

[n107]

I think that Lore has been completely overwritten or deleted thanks to that struggle, so I think bringing him back out again would be too much of a retread. Jack Crusher was a great new character but I think the outstanding introduction from season 3 was Captain Shaw. They over did his attitude in parts but still a solid character. I was just happy to see the old Enterprise again with the crew aboard for one last mission. Was a far more fitting send off for the cast than Nemesis was.

As far as the other seasons, I thought the first had a good premise but was very clunky in execution. I thought the second season started off very strong but the quality of the writing and storytelling got progressively worse as the episodes went on. There were a few gems that I enjoyed but the bulk of season 2 was so bad that I know I'll never watch it again. It's probably the only bit of Star Trek I'm thoroughly disgusted with.

[Cyrus The Great]

I agree, Captain Shaw turned out to be a compelling character, but I really hated him early on.

I watched seasons 2 and 3 of Picard back to back recently. I don't recall thinking that season 2 was really bad. Were there characters or storylines that you were unhappy with?

[n107]

I agree, Captain Shaw turned out to be a compelling character, but I really hated him early on.

I watched seasons 2 and 3 of Picard back to back recently. I don't recall thinking that season 2 was really bad. Were there characters or storylines that you were unhappy with?

There were quite a number of glaring issues with it. I probably can't go into detail as well as I could back when it came out and I'm not going to watch it again to remind myself, but some things that stood out:

-Stressing that they have to keep as low a presence as possible and then stealing a police car and going on a high speed chase across LA then intercepting the bus carrying detainees and allowing them to flee in every direction.

-The episode with the detective that just went absolutely nowhere and only served to kill an hour of time that could have been devoted to the actual plot.

-Infiltrating the party with a musical number that is somehow supported by the orchestra and coordination with the spotlight operator for no logical reason.

-Q basically being sidelined when his dying was one of the most fascinating plot points of the whole season (though the final goodbye with Jean Luc was beautiful).

-Guinan's bar on Earth being located at 10 Forward Street was a beautiful callback to her time on the Enterprise. Until they go back in time and we see she had the bar at 10 Forward Street centuries before she even met Picard and operated the 10-Forward lounge on the Enterprise D.

-Retconning Picard's mother to be a victim of suicide just to artificially add an unnecessary tragic backstory to Jean Luc.

-The entire scene of Seven and Raffi sprinting across a massive, open field with no cover and only a knife and taking out an entire squadron of Borg mercenaries armed with automatic weapons.

-Dr. Soong's ridiculously flawed plan.

-Seven being re-assimiliated where it only recreates the same Borg implants that couldn't be removed through surgery in the other timeline.

-Having the Romulan agent look exactly like Laris but not be her, then forcing her death in the most ham-fisted way but forgetting that Romulan's have green blood.

And many more!

It was just really lazy, sloppy writing that wanted to put more emphasis on action while their attempts at injecting drama were clumsily amateurish. It felt sloppy like Nemesis. For every good thing that they did, they followed it up with an ever increasing string of sloppy ideas that just distracted me from enjoying the story.

Oh! I just remembered one more point that sort of capped off the poor writing. They resolve Rios' storyline with Picard asking whatever became of him after they allowed him to remain in the past (Temporal Prime Directive violation anyone?) and the answer was... *drumroll*... he was knifed to death in a bar fight! Cue laughter and, "Oh, that crazy Rios! How wacky!" What the hell? For real?

By all means, I'm glad that you could enjoy it but those are just some of the reasons why I simply cannot deal with watching it again.

[Cyrus The Great]

First, let me compliment you on your remarkable memory! I tend to binge watch three or four episodes at a time. I think that, at least in part, doesn't allow me to remember each episode in vivid detail. However, your memories have reminded me of some of the scenes that you mention.

I remember thinking that stealing the police car would have triggered a much bigger response: helicopters, swat teams, federal assets, etc. It did seem unrealistic that they got away with it and freed the detainees.

With respect to Q, I got the impression that he may have sidelined himself (not been as near death as he let on) so that Picard could figure things out for himself. Q wanted Picard to have a journey of self-discovery, and that is what happened. Like you, I also enjoyed the final goodbye very much.

Regarding Guinan, I also found it interesting that her bar was located at 10 Forward Street. So, I wondered if she named the bar on Enterprise D as a reminder of the old bar? Also, I was initially surprised that the 10 Forward Street Guinan didn't remember Picard from when he went back in time to 1800's San Francisco (in the Next Gen episode). I started thinking continuity error or stupid retcon about that. However, I thought about this some more and realized, that due to the change in the timeline, the Picard from the Next Gen series never went back to 1800's San Fran. Multilayered timeline confusion!

Agreed, Seven and Raffi should have been annihilated by the Borg!

From what I recall, the agent who looked like Laris was a "watcher", probably sent by the same advanced beings who sent Gary 7 to Earth (from the TOS episode). I'm not sure she was a Romulan, but maybe she was. But, why did she look like Laris? Did the watchers, possibly with future knowledge, alter her to look like Laris so that Picard would be more likely to cooperate with her? It was a mystery that left me wanting an explanation. I must have missed the detail about her blood.

You make some good points N107! There were definitely things about season 2 that could have been better conceived and written. When I watch shows, I tend to not set the bar very high. I am used to frequently suspending disbelief, so I tend to not get too irritated when things don't make sense.

[n107]

First, let me compliment you on your remarkable memory! I tend to binge watch three or four episodes at a time. I think that, at least in part, doesn't allow me to remember each episode in vivid detail. However, your memories have reminded me of some of the scenes that you mention.

I remember thinking that stealing the police car would have triggered a much bigger response: helicopters, swat teams, federal assets, etc. It did seem unrealistic that they got away with it and freed the detainees.

With respect to Q, I got the impression that he may have sidelined himself (not been as near death as he let on) so that Picard could figure things out for himself. Q wanted Picard to have a journey of self-discovery, and that is what happened. Like you, I also enjoyed the final goodbye very much.

Regarding Guinan, I also found it interesting that her bar was located at 10 Forward Street. So, I wondered if she named the bar on Enterprise D as a reminder of the old bar? Also, I was initially surprised that the 10 Forward Street Guinan didn't remember Picard from when he went back in time to 1800's San Francisco (in the Next Gen episode). I started thinking continuity error or stupid retcon about that. However, I thought about this some more and realized, that due to the change in the timeline, the Picard from the Next Gen series never went back to 1800's San Fran. Multilayered timeline confusion!

Agreed, Seven and Raffi should have been annihilated by the Borg!

From what I recall, the agent who looked like Laris was a "watcher", probably sent by the same advanced beings who sent Gary 7 to Earth (from the TOS episode). I'm not sure she was a Romulan, but maybe she was. But, why did she look like Laris? Did the watchers, possibly with future knowledge, alter her to look like Laris so that Picard would be more likely to cooperate with her? It was a mystery that left me wanting an explanation. I must have missed the detail about her blood.

You make some good points N107! There were definitely things about season 2 that could have been better conceived and written. When I watch shows, I tend to not set the bar very high. I am used to frequently suspending disbelief, so I tend to not get too irritated when things don't make sense.

There are some shows that I can ignore some of the less coherent parts and just enjoy as-is. Star Trek isn't one of those shows since the previous series had set the bar very high, even while having flaws of their own. Picard Season 2 was the "Highlander 2" or perhaps "The Source" of the Star Trek franchise. It just didn't understand what came before and the writing quality was so far below the standard that it was hard to ignore. Much like with Highlander, the actors did a fine job with what they were given, but even their performances weren't enough to redeem such a poorly executed series in my eyes.

While Guinan could potentially have chosen Deck 10, Forward section to host her bar when brought aboard the Enterprise, it would be a weak, retroactive "Easter Egg" that makes little sense in reverse. Having her bar on Earth post-TNG located at 10 Forward Avenue as her homage to the great experience on the Enterprise hits so much harder. But they completely dropped the ball with it mere episodes after establishing it. Even a comment in the first episode mentioning that she had the bar for centuries and that's why she asked for that location on the Enterprise would have at least softened the blow but, again, poor story design.

I was with you on the reason why Guinan didn't recognize Picard. It makes sense, in a convoluted time travel way, that because Picard came back from an altered future that he would have never gone back in time and meet her in the 1800s as seen in TNG. So I wasn't bothered by the fact she didn't recognize him... at first. But then when we look closer at other elements in season 2, it doesn't hold up. First, we see Seven and Raffi encounter the punk from Star Trek IV on the bus. He meekly turns off the music when asked as a funny reference to when Spock nerve pinched him in the old films, suggesting that those events seen in STIV happened. But if they're in a past where the future was altered and the peaceful Federation never existed, then the events of Star Trek IV would have never played out. I know that that is thinking too deeply on the matter of something that was supposed to be a fun nod for the fans, and if that was the only flaw I could excuse it. The biggest smoking gun comes in the final episode (or penultimate episode, can't remember), when the Borg mercenaries assault Chateau Picard. Picard notices the bullet holes they put in the wall and remembers that they are there in the future, meaning that this whole time travel experience was already part of the prime timeline. So if that's the case, then it's part of the history of TNG meaning that Picard would have gone back in time in the 1800s as well, so Guinan should have remembered him. I know time travel stuff is just headache inducing, but clearly the creative staff behind this season couldn't even keep up with their own plot. (And don't get me started ranting on how there's no way that Picard, Seven or any of the others from 400 years in the future would even exist, evil or otherwise, if the timeline was changed so far in the past.)

Yes, the Laris doppelganger was a Watcher like Gary 7 but they do mention she is a Romulan as well. I think Picard might have speculated that she was an ancestor of Laris, but perhaps I'm confusing my own speculations with what was said on screen. However, I question the need for her existence. Why have a Watcher that looks like Laris as a plot point that goes nowhere? She dies at the end and nothing she did couldn't have been served by a Watcher that *didn't* look just like Laris. The obvious reason was that Orla Brady was contracted to appear in season 2 so they just created a sloppy excuse for including her in the show even though there was no room for Laris in the story. And, once again, we return back to poor story design being the culprit.

Again, I don't want to detract from your own enjoyment of the series nor am I faulting you for liking it. I'm just expressing why it failed for me, and I don't even remember all the things that bothered me. As I've said, there were a few gem moments throughout the season that I was glad for but I had to wade through so much that disappointed me so thoroughly to reach them and it's not worth a second trip. I almost didn't even watch season 3 because of how much I was let down by season 2, but I reminded myself that I have to evaluate everything on its own rather than condemn something new for sins of the past. I'm glad I did since season 3 was 97% pure WIN for my tastes.

[Cyrus The Great]

I had forgotten that Guinan's bar on the Enterprise-D was named for its location: Deck 10, Forward Section 1 (according to the Memory Alpha Wiki). Unless Guinan helped design the Enterprise-D, I agree with you that the 10 Forward name being the same is pretty ridiculous!

I have also thought a number of times about how a significant change in the past would negate the existence of individuals who lived in the pre-change timeline's future. I recognized that problem many years ago with the Mirror Universe (Terran Empire) episode of TOS.

Don't worry about detracting from my enjoyment of the show. I actually think its fun to discuss these sorts of problems with storylines. So, thank you for this discussion!