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  • Connor MacLeod Timeline(s)

    I've finished reading the IDW series "The American Dream," which largely takes place over the days leading up to the Gathering in the first movie. The book makes no effort to reconcile itself with other depictions of Connor's past outside of the original film's flashbacks, so that prompted me to suggest a discussion of the versions of Connor MacLeod's past, present, and future that we've seen in various media. I'm interested to see how many contradictions pop up and how easily we could assign certain stories to particular timelines.

    Here's what we can say from the first film (blue), the third film (green), and "The American Dream" (yellow).

    1518 -- Connor MacLeod is born in Glenfinnan.
    1536 -- Connor is killed in battle by the Kurgan, and when he revives, he is banished.
    1536-1542 -- Connor marries Heather. Ramirez trains Connor, then the Kurgan kills Ramirez.
    1590 -- Heather dies, and Connor leaves his home to wander the world.

    c.1600 -- Connor trains under Nakano in Japan. Kane kills Nakano, and he is trapped in the cave with his henchmen.
    1783 -- Connor has a drunken duel at Boston Common with Kastagir in attendance.
    1794 -- Connor falls in love with Sarah Barrington nearly loses his head at the guillotine during the French Revolution.
    1796 -- Connor buys his Hudson Street property in NYC under the name Adrian Montague and begins transferring it from one alias to another over time.
    1863 -- Connor meets monk Osta Vazilek and Confederate soldier John Hooke 10 days after Gettysburg in Pennsylvania. Connor shoots Hooke's eye.
    1863-1943? -- Connor leaves the United States and stays in Europe for 80 years. He adopts Rachel before returning to America.

    1955 -- Connor (alias Rupert Wallingford) meets with Vazilek again in NYC and duels with serial killer Hooke. Both immortals survive.
    1985 -- Vazilek visits Connor (alias Russell Nash) in NYC as the Gathering begins. Hooke sets a trap by calling in the Kurgan. Connor kills Hooke. The Kurgan kills Vazilek. A few days later, Connor faces the Kurgan and wins the Prize (?), then returns to Scotland with his new love, Brenda Wyatt.
    1987-1994 -- Brenda Wyatt dies in a car accident. Connor, still immortal enough to survive the accident, moves to Marrakesh and adopts John.
    1994 -- Kane escapes the cave in January. Connor kills Kane in NYC, then returns to Scotland with John and new love Alex Johnson.


    Note: in this timeline, Connor has his katana in both 1863 and 1955. That detail will cause problems with "The Way of the Sword." Also, his 80-year absence from the United States contradicts Highlander II, which places him at Yale in 1902.
    __________________________________________________

    "Really? We are trapped in a room with a machine that can cut off my head. Now that's a longshot."
    --Connor MacLeod in Peter Bellwood's original Highlander II script

  • #2
    Here's an alternate timeline featuring details from the first film (blue), the second film (green), and "The Way of the Sword" (yellow).

    A long time ago -- Connor MacLeod lives a former life as a rebel of Zeist. He is banished along with Ramirez to be reborn in another time and place.
    1518 -- Connor MacLeod is reborn in Glenfinnan.
    1536 -- Connor is killed in battle by the Kurgan, and when he revives, he is banished.
    1536-1542 -- Connor marries Heather. Ramirez trains Connor, then the Kurgan kills Ramirez.
    1590 -- Heather dies, and Connor leaves his home to wander the world.
    1783 -- Connor has a drunken duel at Boston Common with Kastagir in attendance
    .
    1796 -- Connor buys his Hudson Street property in NYC under the name Adrian Montague and begins transferring it from one alias to another over time.
    1804 -- The Kurgan steals Ramirez's katana from Connor on the Victory and escapes to the bottom of the sea.
    1853 -- Connor serves as the captain of the Rosemary. The ship sinks, and he is left adrift at sea.
    1902 -- Connor wins a college football championship while attending Yale.

    1943 -- Connor fights with the Allies in World War II and adopts war orphan Rachel Ellenstein before returning to America.
    1966 -- Connor traces his lost katana to a Paris auction, then to Japan, where he retrieves it from Toshiro Nakayata. He then kills Toshiro in Florence.
    1985 -- The Gathering. Connor kills the Kurgan and wins the Prize. He returns to Scotland with his new love, Brenda Wyatt.
    1995 -- Brenda dies from solar radiation exposure after the ozone layer is depleted. Connor vows to save the Earth.
    1999 -- Connor uses his Prize powers to assemble together scientists and construct a worldwide electromagnetic shield to replace the ozone layer.
    1999-2024 -- The Shield Corporation exploits its global monopoly as the ozone layer repairs itself. Connor and co-founder Allan Neyman lose influence.
    2024 -- General Katana of Zeist teleports to NYC and tries to kill MacLeod. Connor regains his youth, kills Katana, and destroys the shield with his quickening.
    __________________________________________________

    "Really? We are trapped in a room with a machine that can cut off my head. Now that's a longshot."
    --Connor MacLeod in Peter Bellwood's original Highlander II script

    Comment


    • Tootsie Bee
      Tootsie Bee commented
      Editing a comment
      It hasn't been debunked. The last official word on Endgame is 2002. Peter Davis hasn't given his nod to any other date. When it comes to determining if H3 counts, the important thing is whether or not the 1994 part counts. It's probably fair to say that the flashbacks in H3 have been more or less adopted by the comics, but neither the comics nor the audio dramas have confirmed a retcon of Endgame's dates to compensate for Connor's modern-day story in H3. They haven't even given us John MacLeod and Alex Johnson. Endgame still retcons Connor's story in 1994, just as it retcons Connor's story in 2024. I've already provided a what-if timeline that includes H3 with a 2004 Endgame a few posts down, so it's all moot anyway.

    • Leto II
      Leto II commented
      Editing a comment
      Nope, again, you're forgetting that whenever a detail within a canon is reinterpreted, it's the later version that's assumed to take official precedence. And officially, H3 happened in the Duncan-verse. When you make this spurious, fragile claim that simply because Brandon Jerwa never got around to actually depicting the 1994 events of the film in the comics, it suddenly somehow now means they never even happened? Er...sorry, no -- at this point, you're now imposing your fanfiction onto the canon, and disregarding the evidence.

      Canon is about broad strokes, not details. Any long-running series or franchise has contradictory assertions about various details. Was Dr. Watson wounded in the leg, or the shoulder? Is Captain Kirk's middle initial "R" or "T"? Can Data use contractions, or can't he? Does Princess Leia remember her mother, or did her mother die in childbirth? Was Connor MacLeod the last Immortal in 1985, or did The Gathering continue on into the 21st Century?

      And again, generally, when a detail within a canon is reinterpreted, it's the later version that's assumed to take precedence. We now accept that Data doesn't use contractions, even though he used them routinely in the first half of TNG Season 1. Just as TOS has been appearing to contradict itself for decades.

      Spock was a Vulcanian before he was a Vulcan. The Enterprise answered to UESPA before it became a Starfleet ship. Khan's followers were multiethnic until they became all-white; even Khan himself lost his "Indian" complexion in the second movie. Virtually everything that the TNG episode "The Host" established about the Trill species was completely contradicted by DS9. Deanna Troi kissed a bearded Riker numerous times before later claiming onscreen that she'd "never" kissed him with a beard. And so on.

      And, of course, we have the retcon of Highlander 3 from the canonical comics, wherein the third movie has now been conclusively and definitively established to have also taken place within the TV universe, just like H1 itself was previously retconned. And an out-of-school, impromptu DVD commentary-remark by Peter Davis (which was never, *ever* binding on the canon, contrary to what a couple of people seem to think, compared to something actually established onscreen or on the page in an "officially" released story) has likewise since been supplanted by the much more recent Dynamite Comics tales anyhow. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. Older assumptions get replaced by the newer versions.

      Right now you're doing what Sherlock Holmes himself admonished many a character against -- you're twisting the evidence to suit your theories, instead of your theories to suit the evidence.
      Last edited by Leto II; 07-14-2017, 06:39 PM.

    • Tootsie Bee
      Tootsie Bee commented
      Editing a comment
      Again, we have no confirmation--none whatsoever--that H3 in any sense occurred in the TV universe. There's no footnote in any of those comics that says, "Connor later fought Kane in 1994." There's no official timeline issued along with the comic that claims as much. On the other hand, there is an official timeline on the Endgame DVD release (not merely a remark by Peter Davis in the commentary). The comic books never even attempted to retcon that timeline, no matter what the writer's personal feelings were on the topic. Contrast that with H1, which is directly confirmed as part of the TV timeline in the episode "The Watchers." Further details from H1 are directly and unambiguously corroborated by Endgame and the Dynamite comics. (And yet H1 also exists in at least four other parallel timelines without that retcon in place: H1/H2, H1/H3, WOTS/H1, and TAD/H1.)

      At best, it's a Star Trek: The Animated Series situation (since you love ST comparisons). ST: Enterprise made some nods toward TAS in its fourth season. That didn't suddenly make TAS canon, and the writers admitted as much. Even the TAS DVD release, which equivocated on the topic at length, never explicitly overruled Gene Roddenberry's decision to exclude TAS from the canon. Any future ST writers are therefore free to contradict it to their hearts' content, just as they're free to look to it for inspiration. It's there, but it's not binding, and it doesn't necessitate a retcon to ignore its ideas.

      So as it stands, we have Kane existing in two timelines. One timeline is H1/H3, where Connor wins the Prize in 1994. The other is the TV series timeline, where Connor dies in 2002. And since Connor's fate differs in those two timelines, it's no surprise that Kane's fate differs in those two timelines.


      And to keep this comment string from going any further, I'll note two things:

      1) We have a thread to discuss our feelings on H3's relationship to the TV show in the H3 forum, so there's no need to go on forever in this thread.

      2) As previously noted, you can scroll down a few posts and find a timeline I've made that includes both H3 and Endgame. If you don't like something about that timeline (other than my insistence on calling it a composite timeline instead of an official TV timeline), then respond to that post, not this one.
      Last edited by Tootsie Bee; 07-15-2017, 12:09 AM.

  • #3
    Nice! I'll have to reread to figure out why you used 80 years… From the comic.

    Comment


    • dubiousbystander
      dubiousbystander commented
      Editing a comment
      Oooh, you are precisely right. Silly writers. Well, they worked hard, and were solely writing for movie 1.

    • Leto II
      Leto II commented
      Editing a comment
      There's some wiggle-room with that comment to include the TV show's post-Kern massacre flashbacks -- Connor says something to the effect that he's "leaving America" behind, and the far-western Washington territories weren't yet a part of the United States, technically-speaking. Meaning he spent some time back in the Old World (as mentioned in the comic book), but later stayed out of the U.S. proper, and worked as a fur-trapper further away from its immediate sphere of influence, if one wants to make it all fit together.
      Last edited by Leto II; 07-13-2017, 03:47 PM.

    • Tootsie Bee
      Tootsie Bee commented
      Editing a comment
      The Washington territories aren't Europe. He said he was returning to Europe, and then he said that he stayed in Europe for 80 years.

  • #4
    Now all we need is Connor's timelines which include his interactions with Duncan from The Series and Endgame and from The Element of Fire novel.

    Comment


    • #5
      Originally posted by Colleengael View Post
      Now all we need is Connor's timelines which include his interactions with Duncan from The Series and Endgame and from The Element of Fire novel.
      The rest of the Dynamite comics, too.
      Highlander: Dark Places

      Comment


      • #6
        Originally posted by Tootsie Bee View Post
        Note: in this timeline, Connor has his katana in both 1863 and 1955. That detail will cause problems with "The Way of the Sword."
        Although after The Way of the Sword came out, it was theorized that this was simply another instance of Connor using a substitute for Ramirez's katana, as "The Gathering" established onscreen (i.e., him using a braided tachi sword in that episode). You can pretty much have The American Dream, The Coldest War, and The Way of the Sword co-existing in harmony if you interpret Connor's sword in The Coldest War's flashbacks as being a replica of the original Masamune (a stylized way of honoring Ramirez?), with Connor then recovering the original in The Way of the Sword, just a few years later in 1966.

        Comment


        • Tootsie Bee
          Tootsie Bee commented
          Editing a comment
          "The Coldest War" calls it Ramirez's katana. Therefore, it's Ramirez's katana.

        • Leto II
          Leto II commented
          Editing a comment
          I just re-read the entire "The Coldest War" storyline (in case I needed to adjust my personal notes and timeline), and there's actually no reference made to Ramirez's katana one way or the other...there is one mention made by the Kurgan to Ramirez, but it's to the neck-injury he sustained in the film, while Connor and the other Immortals are aboard the escape-plane during the 1964 flashbacks.
          Last edited by Leto II; 07-13-2017, 04:00 PM.

        • Tootsie Bee
          Tootsie Bee commented
          Editing a comment
          Sorry. That was my mistake. I meant "The American Dream" calls it Ramirez's katana. It's clearly meant to be Ramirez's katana in "The Coldest War," though.

      • #7
        This next timeline is a bit of a cheat, but I wanted to experiment with the possibilities. Certain minor details from the H1 novel and The Element of Fire don't agree with what we see on screen elsewhere. Also, there's the animated series, which obviously can't fit with Endgame. This one's more of a thought experiment than anything.

        This time, we have H1 (blue), televised continuity (green), and book-based continuity (yellow).

        1518 -- Connor MacLeod is born in Glenfinnan.
        1536 --
        The Frazers kill Connor's father, leading to a clan battle. Connor is killed in the battle by the Kurgan, and when he revives, he is banished.
        1536-1540 -- Connor meets Heather MacDonald. Her father teaches Connor blacksmithing before dying. Connor marries Heather.
        1541-1542 -- Ramirez trains Connor, then the Kurgan kills Ramirez.
        1590 -- Heather dies, and Connor leaves his home to wander the world.

        1610 -- Connor learns basic seamanship when rescued at sea near Cape Horn by the Jugleor.
        1624 -- Connor returns to Scotland and lives in the ruins of a forge.

        1625 -- Connor meets Duncan MacLeod, as predicted by a hermit. Duncan is apparently trying to drown himself, but Connor trains him anyway.
        1630 -- Connor temporarily leaves Duncan, unintentionally evading Martin Hyde in the process.
        1632 -- Connor and Duncan confront Khordas and Nerissa in Scotland. Duncan kills Nerissa.
        1777 -- Connor serves with Sunda Kastagir at Valley Forge.
        1783 -- Connor has a drunken duel at Boston Common with Kastagir in attendance.
        1786 -- Connor squabbles with Hugh Fitzcairn over their mutual interest in a woman. Duncan is present.
        c.1800 -- Connor meets up with Kastagir in the West Indies.
        1815 -- Connor is at the Battle of Waterloo.
        1839 -- Connor changes his alias to Hamilton Kopp.

        1796 -- Connor buys his Hudson Street property in NYC under the name Adrian Montague and begins transferring it from one alias to another over time.
        1853 -- Connor serves as the captain of the Rosemary. Duncan joins him. The ship sinks thanks to Khordas, and he is left adrift at sea.
        1872 -- Connor helps Duncan bury Little Deer and her tribe.
        1879 -- Connor, now a member of the 17th Lancers, meets up with Kastagir in Africa during the Zulu Wars.
        1897 -- Connor, now alias Captain David Carruthers, faces Khordas with Duncan.

        1943 -- Connor rescues and adopts war orphan Rachel Ellenstein in World War II.
        1985 -- The Gathering
        begins. Connor kills the Kurgan, then returns to Scotland with his new love, Brenda Wyatt.
        1992 -- Connor is pursuing Slan Quince, who is looking to challenge Duncan. Connor nearly defeats Slan, but the villain cheats, and Duncan has to finish it.
        20?? -- The Great Catastrophe occurs. Connor joins the Jettators, but breaks his oath to challenge Kortan. He dies prophesying the coming of Quentin MacLeod.
        Last edited by Tootsie Bee; 07-13-2017, 06:10 AM.
        __________________________________________________

        "Really? We are trapped in a room with a machine that can cut off my head. Now that's a longshot."
        --Connor MacLeod in Peter Bellwood's original Highlander II script

        Comment


        • Leto II
          Leto II commented
          Editing a comment
          As well they should -- it's still a very well-made film, certain kneejerk fandom reactions notwithstanding.

        • Tootsie Bee
          Tootsie Bee commented
          Editing a comment
          Peter Davis told Empire magazine in 2009 that it's his favorite sequel.

        • Leto II
          Leto II commented
          Editing a comment
          Agreed, it's definitely my own personal fave of the sequels, too -- it's so batshit-crazy that it'd never even get made today, in today's safe, studio-mandated, "franchise-friendly" industry environment.

      • #8
        Ok, now the moment you've all been waiting for: the TV series timeline proper. We're going with the Endgame DVD timeline, so that means Connor is in the Sanctuary from 1992 to 2002. Ergo, no H3. (Parts of the original Brad Mirman H3 script are semi-canonical thanks to the Dynamite comic story "The Coldest War," which mentions Thomas Cavanaugh.) Any changes to pre-existing TV canon, including The Element of Fire, are regarded here as official retcons and not indicators of an alternate timeline.

        This time, we're breaking it down into the movies (blue), the TV series and its tie-in novels/audio dramas (green), and the Dynamite comics (yellow).



        1518 -- Connor MacLeod is born in Glenfinnan.
        1536 --
        Connor is killed in battle by the Kurgan, and when he revives, he is banished.
        1541-1542 -- Connor marries Heather. Ramirez trains Connor, then the Kurgan kills Ramirez.
        1555 -- Connor kills Father Rainey and Jacob Kell after they burn his mother at the stake. Kell, an immortal, revives.
        1590 -- Heather dies, and Connor leaves his home to wander the world.

        c.1600 -- Connor meets a new mentor, Thomas Cavanaugh, in England.
        1610 -- Connor learns basic seamanship when rescued at sea near Cape Horn by the Jugleor.
        1624 -- Connor returns to Scotland and lives in the ruins of a forge.
        1625 -- Connor meets Duncan MacLeod, as predicted by a hermit.
        Connor soon finds him dead on a battlefield and trains him.
        1630 -- Connor temporarily leaves Duncan, unintentionally evading Martin Hyde in the process.
        1631 -- Connor continues Duncan's training in Ravenna.
        1632 -- Connor and Duncan confront Khordas and Nerissa in Scotland. Duncan kills Nerissa.
        1712 -- Connor and Duncan save Kate Devaney from highwaymen in Kildare.
        1715 -- Connor returns to Ireland for Duncan's ill-fated wedding to Kate.

        c.1792 -- Cavanaugh accompanies Connor by sea to Paris and ends up beheaded by guillotine.
        1783 -- Connor has a drunken duel at Boston Common with Kastagir in attendance.
        1786 -- Connor squabbles with Hugh Fitzcairn over their mutual interest in a woman. Duncan is present.
        1796 -- Connor buys his Hudson Street property in NYC under the name Adrian Montague and begins transferring it from one alias to another over time.
        1851 -- Connor and Duncan meet with Kastagir in Dry River, Texas.
        1853 -- Connor serves as the captain of the Rosemary. Duncan joins him. The ship sinks thanks to Khordas, and he is left adrift at sea.
        1872 -- Connor helps Duncan bury Little Deer and her tribe.

        1897 -- Connor, now alias Captain David Carruthers, faces Khordas with Duncan.
        1943 -- Connor fights the Nazis in France during World War II under Sgt. Hicks. He rescues and adopts war orphan Rachel Ellenstein.
        1952 -- Connor attends Rachel's high school graduation.

        1963 -- Rachel leaves for Italy. Sgt. Hicks informs Connor of super-soldier experiments in Berlin.
        1964 -- Connor and Tasya Desny face the Kurgan and his Temnotiye in Russia. Connor and Rachel both return to NYC.
        1985 -- The Gathering begins. Connor kills the Kurgan, then returns to Scotland with his new love, Brenda Wyatt.
        1986 -- Connor takes on Tasya and the Temnotiye in Moscow and Siberia.
        1987 -- Brenda is hit by a car on New Year's Day but survives. The Kurgan's Quickening adversely affects Connor. Gordon Byrne kidnaps Connor to provoke the Dark Quickening, but Duncan saves him and brings him to holy ground with Fitzcairn, where he recovers.

        1992 -- Connor is pursuing Slan Quince, who is looking to challenge Duncan. Connor nearly defeats Slan, but the villain cheats, and Duncan has to finish it. Later that year, Connor calls Duncan in from Paris, but disappears to the Sanctuary for ten years without telling Duncan after Kell kills Rachel.
        2002 -- Kell lets Connor out of the Sanctuary and then reveals that he has been vengefully killing off Connor's loved ones over the years. Connor lets Duncan take his head so that the younger MacLeod can defeat Kell. Duncan temporarily morphs into Connor during the duel and then kills Kell.

        2009 -- Connor and the Kurgan are resurrected when Duncan takes a head on holy ground. Connor lets the Kurgan take his head so that Duncan can kill him.
        2012 -- Connor's spirit continues to assist Duncan over the subsequent years, even helping him face off against an ex-Watcher cult called The Eye.
        __________________________________________________

        "Really? We are trapped in a room with a machine that can cut off my head. Now that's a longshot."
        --Connor MacLeod in Peter Bellwood's original Highlander II script

        Comment


        • #9
          Ok, so can these timelines be reconciled? Not easily, for sure. I'm going to start by suggesting a way of fixing the continuity issues between the various comic books: the main three-volume Dynamite run, which consists of "The Coldest War," "Dark Quickening," and "Armageddon," with direct ties to the TV series timeline; "Way of the Sword," which is also from Dynamite but not in the same continuity; and "The American Dream," which is from IDW and again in its own continuity. Basically, we have two big issues: WOTS takes away Connor's katana for over 150 years, which doesn't gel with any story set in the 1800s or early 1900s, and TAD claims that Connor spent 80 years in Europe, which contradicts the TV show that underlies the Dynamite Vol. 1-3 continuity.

          So here's an adjusted composite of Dynamite Vol. 1-3 (blue), "Way of the Sword" (green), and "The American Dream" (yellow).

          c.1600 -- Connor meets a new mentor, Thomas Cavanaugh, in England.
          c.1792 -- Cavanaugh accompanies Connor by sea to Paris and ends up beheaded by guillotine.

          1804 -- The Kurgan fails in an attempt to steal Ramirez's katana from Connor on the Victory and escapes to the bottom of the sea.
          1851 -- Connor and Duncan meet with Kastagir in Dry River, Texas.
          1863 -- Connor (katana in hand) meets monk Osta Vazilek and Confederate soldier John Hooke 10 days after Gettysburg in Pennsylvania. Connor shoots Hooke's eye. He considers leaving the United States but doesn't, at least not immediately, and certainly not for 80 years straight.
          1943 -- Connor fights the Nazis in France during World War II under Sgt. Hicks and adopts war orphan Rachel Ellenstein.
          1955 -- Connor (alias Rupert Wallingford) meets with Vazilek again in NYC and duels with serial killer Hooke (using his katana). Both immortals survive.
          1963 -- Rachel leaves for Italy. Sgt. Hicks informs Connor of super-soldier experiments in Berlin.
          1964 -- Connor and Tasya Desny face the Kurgan and his Temnotiye in Russia.
          In the scuffle, Connor loses his katana to the Kurgan, and he doesn't get it back for two years. Connor and Rachel both return to NYC.
          1966 -- Connor traces his lost katana to a Paris auction, then to Japan, where he retrieves it from Toshiro Nakayata. He then kills Toshiro in Florence.
          1985 -- Vazilek visits Connor (alias Russell Nash) in NYC as the Gathering begins. Hooke sets a trap by calling in the Kurgan. Connor kills Hooke. The Kurgan kills Vazilek.Connor kills the Kurgan, then returns to Scotland with his new love, Brenda Wyatt.
          1986 -- Connor takes on Tasya and the Temnotiye in Moscow and Siberia.
          1987 -- Brenda is hit by a car on New Year's Day but survives. The Kurgan's Quickening adversely affects Connor. Gordon Byrne kidnaps Connor to provoke the Dark Quickening, but Duncan saves him and brings him to holy ground with Fitzcairn, where he recovers.
          2002 -- Connor lets Duncan take his head so that the younger MacLeod can defeat Jacob Kell.
          2012 -- Connor's spirit continues to assist Duncan over the subsequent years, even helping him face off against an ex-Watcher cult called The Eye.
          __________________________________________________

          "Really? We are trapped in a room with a machine that can cut off my head. Now that's a longshot."
          --Connor MacLeod in Peter Bellwood's original Highlander II script

          Comment


          • #10
            But you know, the Kurgan mini-series featured Kane, which sort of implies 3's "canonicity" towards the Series-verse, no?

            Comment


            • Tootsie Bee
              Tootsie Bee commented
              Editing a comment
              Isn't that kinda like saying that The Element of Fire implies H2's canonicity? Kane can exist in more than one timeline. At best, it supports the notion that the flashbacks from H3 are canonical. For all we know, Kane escaped the cave in 1994 and got his head cut off by Michael Kent.

          • #11
            I kind of disagree fundamentally with the "series" timeline. I believe even things like "The American Way" and "Way of the Sword" should be considered having happened, even if not directly intended by the writers in the same way Highlander 1 happens in it, even if not intended by the writer.
            Highlander: Dark Places

            Comment


            • Leto II
              Leto II commented
              Editing a comment
              As the larger, ongoing segment of the franchise, with the largest number of stories told in it, the Duncan-verse is definitely the "default" continuity at this point, similar to how, for example, the Prime Universe is the "default" continuity in Star Trek, or how the Universal Century is the "default" setting in Mobile Suit Gundam, despite many "alternate" universes existing in that franchise. At some point there may indeed come a total reboot of HL, in which case there may be no more Duncanverse stories getting officially told, but for the moment it's still the fallback continuity that the most people overall are likely familiar with.

            • Tootsie Bee
              Tootsie Bee commented
              Editing a comment
              The last two comic arcs have both been deliberately standalone. Ergo, it's no longer the default.

            • Aleander
              Aleander commented
              Editing a comment
              Furthermore, there's no force to provide context for canon. Like with Doctor Who, there really isn't anyone out there to say "this is canon and this is not". So this kind of rhetoric has always been curious, because this is a franchise that has examplified whatthefuckery continuity-wise. Its Pick Your Own Adventure, and it always has been like this, even with the frickin' producers of the franchise!

          • #12
            Here's my attempt at a definitive pre-Gathering timeline. It includes the hard canon, namely things seen in live action (blue), soft canon, i.e. things seen in The Element of Fire and the various comic books (green), and questionable canon: the H1 novelization, the Brad Mirman H3 script, and speculative revisions (yellow).

            A long time ago -- Connor MacLeod lives a former life as a rebel of Zeist. He is banished along with Ramirez to be reborn in another time and place.
            1518 -- Connor MacLeod is reborn in Glenfinnan.

            1536 – The Frasers kill the MacLeod chieftain, leading to a clan battle. Connor is killed in the battle by the Kurgan, and when he revives, he is banished. His father alters the tartan pattern in his honor.
            1536-1540 – Connor meets Heather MacDonald. Her father teaches Connor blacksmithing before dying. Connor marries Heather.
            1541-1542 -- Connor marries Heather. Ramirez trains Connor, then the Kurgan kills Ramirez.
            1555 -- Connor kills Father Rainey and Jacob Kell after they burn his mother at the stake. Kell, an immortal, revives.
            1590 -- Heather dies, and Connor buries her and leaves home.

            1600 – Connor flees Scotland after protecting a farmer from warriors.
            1601-1602 -- Connor meets a new mentor, Thomas Cavanaugh, in England. He decides to begin wandering the world.

            1605 -- Connor trains under Nakano in Japan. Kane kills Nakano, and he is trapped in the cave with his henchmen.
            1610 -- Connor learns basic seamanship when rescued at sea near Cape Horn by the Jugleor.
            1624 -- Connor returns to Scotland and lives in the ruins of a forge.

            1625 -- Connor meets Duncan MacLeod, as predicted by a hermit. Connor finds him dead on a battlefield and trains him.
            1630 -- Connor temporarily leaves Duncan, unintentionally evading Martin Hyde in the process. 1631 -- Connor continues Duncan's training in Ravenna.

            1632 -- Connor and Duncan confront Khordas and Nerissa in Scotland. Duncan kills Nerissa.
            1712 -- Connor and Duncan save Kate Devaney from highwaymen in Kildare.
            1715 -- Connor returns to Ireland for Duncan's ill-fated wedding to Kate.

            1777 -- Connor serves with Sunda Kastagir at Valley Forge.
            1783 -- Connor has a drunken duel at Boston Common with Kastagir in attendance.
            1786 -- Connor squabbles with Hugh Fitzcairn over their mutual interest in a woman. Duncan is present.

            1792 -- Cavanaugh accompanies Connor by sea to Paris and ends up beheaded by guillotine.
            1794 -- Connor falls in love with Sarah Barrington and nearly loses his head at the guillotine during the French Revolution.
            1796 -- Connor buys his Hudson Street property in NYC under the name Adrian Montague and begins transferring it from one alias to another over time.

            1802 -- Connor meets up with Kastagir in the West Indies.
            1804 -- The Kurgan fights Connor on the Victory and escapes to the bottom of the sea.
            1815 -- Connor is at the Battle of Waterloo.
            1839 -- Connor changes his alias to Hamilton Kopp.

            1851 -- Connor and Duncan meet with Kastagir in Dry River, Texas.
            1853 -- Connor serves as the captain of the Rosemary. Duncan joins him. The ship sinks thanks to Khordas, and he is left adrift at sea.
            1863 -- Connor meets monk Osta Vazilek and Confederate soldier John Hooke 10 days after Gettysburg in Pennsylvania. Connor shoots Hooke's eye.
            1872 -- Connor helps Duncan bury Little Deer and her tribe.
            1879 -- Connor, now a member of the 17th Lancers, meets up with Kastagir in Africa during the Zulu Wars.
            1888 – Connor kills Jack the Ripper.

            1897 -- Connor, now alias Captain David Carruthers, faces Khordas with Duncan.
            1902 -- Connor wins a college football championship while attending Yale.
            1943 -- Connor fights the Nazis in France during World War II
            under Sgt. Hicks. He rescues and adopts war orphan Rachel Ellenstein before returning to America.
            1952 -- Connor attends Rachel's high school graduation.

            1955 -- Connor (alias Rupert Wallingford) meets with Vazilek again in NYC and duels with serial killer Hooke. Both immortals survive.
            1963 -- Rachel leaves for Italy. Sgt. Hicks informs Connor of super-soldier experiments in Berlin.
            1964 -- Connor, Paul Furio, and Tasya Desny face the Kurgan and his Temnotiye in Russia.
            In the scuffle, Connor loses his katana to the Kurgan, who is shot by a laser cannon and escapes. Connor and Rachel both return to NYC.
            1966 -- Connor traces his lost katana to a Paris auction, then to Japan, where he retrieves it from Toshiro Nakayata. He then kills Toshiro in Florence.
            Last edited by Tootsie Bee; 07-13-2017, 04:12 PM.
            __________________________________________________

            "Really? We are trapped in a room with a machine that can cut off my head. Now that's a longshot."
            --Connor MacLeod in Peter Bellwood's original Highlander II script

            Comment


            • #13
              Ok, so we finally have the 1985+ composite timeline, which seeks to include H3 (and the Mirman H3 script) and "The American Dream" with the TV series universe. Unfortunately, H2 and TAS still can't fit in without hand-waving them as hallucinations or some nonsense like that. Notably, Endgame's dates are bumped two years ahead to make room for H3. Some fans may get nitpicky about whether or not Duncan was in Paris circa December 1994, but he certainly wasn't there in December 1992, so any gripes on that front exist even with the official timeline. An alternative approach is to stick H3 in 1992, but that method makes 1992 so cluttered that it becomes ludicrous--and speaking of ludicrous, Connor adopted his son John "before he could spell," so even 1987-1994 is pushing it, considering how old John looks in H3. (The Dynamite comic books, which are supposedly H3-friendly, drop the ball by failing to include John in "The Coldest War" and "Dark Quickening.")

              We have undisputed Series canon (blue), incorporated non-Series canon (green), and gap-filling speculation/Mirman H3 script (yellow).

              1985 -- Vazilek visits Connor (alias Russell Nash) in NYC as the Gathering begins. Hooke sets a trap by calling in the Kurgan. Connor kills Hooke. The Kurgan kills Vazilek. Connor kills the Kurgan, then returns to Scotland with his new love, Brenda Wyatt.
              1986 -- Connor takes on Tasya and the Temnotiye in Moscow and Siberia.
              1987 -- Brenda is hit by a car on New Year's Day but survives. The Kurgan's Quickening adversely affects Connor. Gordon Byrne kidnaps Connor to provoke the Dark Quickening, but Duncan saves him and brings him to holy ground with Fitzcairn, where he recovers.
              Later that year, Kell crashes a car into Connor and Brenda in Scotland. Brenda dies instantly, but Connor survives. Grief-stricken, Connor moves to Marrakesh and adopts John.
              1992 -- Connor briefly returns to NYC to fight Kilvara, visiting Rachel while he's there. Bedsoe, who also investigated the 1985 murders, lets him go, much to the chagrin of fellow police officer John Stenn. Shortly afterward, Connor begins pursuing Slan Quince, who is looking to challenge Duncan. Connor nearly defeats Slan, but Slan cheats, and Duncan has to finish it.
              1994 -- In January, Kane escapes Nakano's cave. Connor faces him in NYC, with Stenn in pursuit. Connor kills Kane and returns to Scotland with his son John and his new love, Alex Johnson, who resembles his old love from the French Revolution, Sarah Barrington. Sometime during the year, Kell kills John and Alex. In December, Connor calls Duncan in from Paris, but disappears to the Sanctuary for ten years without telling Duncan after Kell kills Rachel.
              2004 -- Kell lets Connor out of the Sanctuary and then reveals that he has been vengefully killing off Connor's loved ones over the years. Connor lets Duncan take his head so that the younger MacLeod can defeat Kell. Duncan temporarily morphs into Connor during the duel and then kills Kell.
              2009 -- Connor and the Kurgan are resurrected when Duncan takes a head on holy ground. Connor lets the Kurgan take his head so that Duncan can kill him.
              2012 -- Connor's spirit continues to assist Duncan over the subsequent years, even helping him face off against an ex-Watcher cult called The Eye.
              Last edited by Tootsie Bee; 07-13-2017, 10:47 PM.
              __________________________________________________

              "Really? We are trapped in a room with a machine that can cut off my head. Now that's a longshot."
              --Connor MacLeod in Peter Bellwood's original Highlander II script

              Comment


              • #14
                Originally posted by Tootsie Bee View Post
                Again, we have no confirmation--none whatsoever--that H3 in any sense occurred in the TV universe. There's no footnote in any of those comics that says, "Connor later fought Kane in 1994." There's no official timeline issued along with the comic that claims as much. On the other hand, there is an official timeline on the Endgame DVD release (not merely a remark by Peter Davis in the commentary). The comic books never even attempted to retcon that timeline, no matter what the writer's personal feelings were on the topic. Contrast that with H1, which is directly confirmed as part of the TV timeline in the episode "The Watchers." Further details from H1 are directly and unambiguously corroborated by Endgame and the Dynamite comics. (And yet H1 also exists in at least four other parallel timelines without that retcon in place: H1/H2, H1/H3, WOTS/H1, and TAD/H1.)

                [...]

                So as it stands, we have Kane existing in two timelines. One timeline is H1/H3, where Connor wins the Prize in 1994. The other is the TV series timeline, where Connor dies in 2002. And since Connor's fate differs in those two timelines, it's no surprise that Kane's fate differs in those two timelines.
                Nope, sorry -- again you're imposing your personal fanfiction onto the canon, in an attempt to prove a theory that Davis/Panzer's own hired creators have since stated is invalid. Brandon Jerwa (corroborated by our own Andrew NDB) has explicitly stated that H3 takes place within the TV universe, as per his numerous references to the film all across the entire Dynamite series. And also again, you're forgetting that newer stories supplant older ones, and the Dynamite series retconned H3 to fit within the TV universe, just as H1 was previously.

                Saying that just because Jerwa never depicted the Mount Niri incident now means it never happened is absolutely absurd, not to mention lacking in formal logic -- again, "Absence of evidence does not equal evidence of absence."

                I'm always puzzled by this weird assumption that just because continuity exists among different works, it somehow suddenly makes each individual story "incomprehensible" on its own. Indeed, EVERY story ever told draws upon elements from beyond its own limits -- on the characters' pasts and relationships, on the nature and history of the world they inhabit, etc.

                "The Cage," the very first Star Trek episode ever produced, referenced prior events on Rigel VII, even though those events were never actually depicted. Just because a story briefly references some earlier or future event, that doesn't mean you can't comprehend the story without having seen that same event. Heck, just about every story depends on references to things from its characters' pasts.

                Like, say, Raiders of the Lost Ark, which is heavily driven by the unseen past relationships Indiana Jones had with Marion and Belloq. Or Shakespeare's The Tempest, which relies on the history of Prospero and his exile. You didn't get to see those past events, but the current story tells you just what you need to know about them, and it works.

                Besides, it's not the audience who decides what is canon. That's a complete misunderstanding of what the word means. Canon is what the creators themselves create and define, not the fans. In its literal, religious sense, it refers to the doctrine as defined by the church, as opposed to any rival beliefs held by laypeople. The idea of "personal canon" is an oxymoron.


                Originally posted by Tootsie Bee View Post
                At best, it's a Star Trek: The Animated Series situation (since you love ST comparisons). ST: Enterprise made some nods toward TAS in its fourth season. That didn't suddenly make TAS canon, and the writers admitted as much. Even the TAS DVD release, which equivocated on the topic at length, never explicitly overruled Gene Roddenberry's decision to exclude TAS from the canon. Any future ST writers are therefore free to contradict it to their hearts' content, just as they're free to look to it for inspiration. It's there, but it's not binding, and it doesn't necessitate a retcon to ignore its ideas
                As for Star Trek: The Animated Series, the so-called "official policy" excluding TAS ceased to apply a couple of decades ago. Fandom just never got the memo.

                That was purely a function of its time, and hasn't been relevant for a quarter-century now, which makes it kind of ridiculous that fandom still thinks it matters. It was a memo issued in Gene Roddenberry's name in 1989 (I question his authorship, because his physical and mental health were very poor at that point), and there were a couple of factors behind it.

                One was that Filmation had gone out of business, and the ownership of TAS was unresolved. It was the one part of the Trek franchise that Paramount (as the company was called at the time) didn't have full ownership of, so they weren't free to make full use of it. But that no longer applies. Paramount/CBS gained full ownership of TAS ages ago.

                The other reason for the memo was Roddenberry's ego, pure and simple. By the 1980s, he'd gotten very possessive and jealous about Star Trek, and wanted to decanonize just about anything that he wasn't directly responsible for, including some of the later movies and even parts of TOS. Ironically, he'd been given full creative control over TAS, something he never had with any other incarnation, but he'd chosen to step back and entrust D.C. Fontana with the show instead.

                Which made it totally hypocritical for him to devalue it just because Fontana (and Filmation's Lou Scheimer) had been in charge of it, instead of him. It occurred to me just the other day that this was only a couple of years after he'd gone out of his way to cheat Fontana and David Gerrold out of their right to co-creator credit for TNG, so maybe devaluing Fontana's other contributions was an extension of that. But all of that ceased to matter when Roddenberry died over 25 years ago.

                So TAS is as canonical as anything else now. The reasons for its decanonization -- the bankruptcy, and either Roddenberry's or Richard Arnold's agenda -- ceased to be legal factors two decades ago, and the ban has not been observed in nearly as long.

                (Indeed, the "TAS ban" didn't even have any canonical weight in the brief period when it was actually in effect. TNG's "Unification" came out during the "ban" period, but it freely alluded to elements from "Yesteryear" for example.)
                Last edited by Leto II; 07-15-2017, 08:45 AM.

                Comment


                • Aleander
                  Aleander commented
                  Editing a comment
                  The show never fit the original film in its history, per se. Just its events. Kind of a different story.

                • dubiousbystander
                  dubiousbystander commented
                  Editing a comment
                  That would be Jerwa's fanfiction...

                • Tootsie Bee
                  Tootsie Bee commented
                  Editing a comment
                  "Jerwa's fanfiction" is probably a fair way to look at it as it stands. That said, if Jerwa had placed the third arc of the comic in 1994 (with the blessing of The Powers That Be), he could have changed it officially. He had the authority to alter canon, but intent alone doesn't alter canon, especially when H3 had already been explicitly barred from canon by Endgame's creative team, both on screen and in supplementary materials. As it stands, Dynamite's use of Kane most closely resembles the use of Timothy Zahn's EU character Thrawn in Star Wars: Rebels. They've retained the character's backstory and personality, but that doesn't mean that we should expect Heir to the Empire and its sequels to become re-canonized.

              • #15
                Originally posted by Leto II View Post
                Canon is what the creators themselves create and define, not the fans.
                In this case, Peter Davis, and not you.
                __________________________________________________

                "Really? We are trapped in a room with a machine that can cut off my head. Now that's a longshot."
                --Connor MacLeod in Peter Bellwood's original Highlander II script

                Comment


                • Tootsie Bee
                  Tootsie Bee commented
                  Editing a comment
                  There was nothing to override. He didn't do anything but recycle a character from a different timeline.

                • Leto II
                  Leto II commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Got a quote to prove this? Because there's no evidence to support this whole theory of yours, here.

                • dubiousbystander
                  dubiousbystander commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I'll just chew on popcorn.

              • #16
                ^ Actually, Dynamite Comics, in this case.

                Comment


                • Tootsie Bee
                  Tootsie Bee commented
                  Editing a comment
                  IT'S NOT MY PREFERENCE! I would prefer that Endgame's prologue be set in 1994. But I'm not delusional. 1992 has never been contradicted. It stands.

                • Leto II
                  Leto II commented
                  Editing a comment
                  According to what evidence, though? I'm honestly not trying to be an asshole or anything here, but the canonical comics prove otherwise.

                • Tootsie Bee
                  Tootsie Bee commented
                  Editing a comment
                  No, they don't. They never discuss when Endgame happened. (And they did have a chance to do so: the Armageddon story.) Therefore, it happened in 1992/2002, the last official date provided by TPTB. Those dates are stupid for a number of reasons, but that's to be expected with this franchise. If you want to say that maaaybe H3 happened in 1992 in the TV universe, go for it, but again, there's no statement on the matter.

              • #17
                Now I know how many felt back in the day about out canon-not canon conversations.

                Comment


                • #18
                  Originally posted by Aleander View Post
                  Now I know how many felt back in the day about out canon-not canon conversations.
                  Did they all get popcorn to watch the show? I don't actually have any popcorn, but it's the spirit of the thing.

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    I think Al means that people used to find it a waste of time. And yes, it is, more or less. It really doesn't matter all that much, especially now that the franchise is practically dead (IDW's licensing of the title notwithstanding). Perhaps it says it all that I find it stupid that H3 and H4 are incompatible, but I still hold that it's technically true. It's akin to another Dimension-acquired franchise that starts with an H. They bought the rights to Halloween in the early 90s. They made The Curse of Michael Myers in 1995, and then they turned around and wrote it out of continuity with H20 in 1998. The only difference is that the Halloween films had gone so far off the rails that a little bit of discontinuity made sense to resuscitate the franchise. Highlander didn't need such heavy-handed rewriting. The Final Dimension is kinda sucky, but it does no harm to the TV series continuity, which itself had introduced magical powers and people buried alive for centuries. H3 was ignored simply because Joel Soisson is a hack writer who couldn't think of any better idea for Endgame than "Connor has been taking a nap for ten years." If the Dynamite comic books actually *had* brought the modern day part of H3 into the TV continuity rather than settling for Canon Immigrants*, I'd be all for it.

                    *See TV Tropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...CanonImmigrant
                    __________________________________________________

                    "Really? We are trapped in a room with a machine that can cut off my head. Now that's a longshot."
                    --Connor MacLeod in Peter Bellwood's original Highlander II script

                    Comment


                    • #20
                      Originally posted by Tootsie Bee View Post
                      H3 was ignored simply because Joel Soisson is a hack writer who couldn't think of any better idea for Endgame than "Connor has been taking a nap for ten years." If the Dynamite comic books actually *had* brought the modern day part of H3 into the TV continuity rather than settling for Canon Immigrants*, I'd be all for it.
                      Hahahaha indeed! Officially allowed does not guarantee quality. Heck, we know that too well.

                      Comment


                      • #21
                        I'm pretty sure if we were to lay it out and ask Abramowitz when Endgame was set, he'd admit that 1994/2004 are the only dates that work. But he didn't work on Endgame. We could ask Peter Davis, but he'd probably have no idea what we're talking about.

                        I think it's best to go with the most logical dates, since there is no actual on-screen dates and a timeline ap put together by a timeline ap guy is just a timeline ap.
                        Highlander: Dark Places

                        Comment


                        • #22
                          No dates for Endgame are logical. The prologue certainly makes the most sense in 1994 for numerous reasons, but the present day story makes very little sense beyond its 2000 release date. The tenuous fan-fiction solution I've offered in the past is changing the length of time to five years, which outright ignores the onscreen time markers for the sake of offering the most logical dates. However, as it stands, we can't say that the most logical dates are canonical simply because they work better than the official ones. If Abramowitz wants to release a statement to override the last official word on the matter, then he certainly can, but I'm sure that he doesn't care in the least about Endgame. The truth is that if he had been there with any creative control on the fourth film, he never would have been stupid enough to stick Connor in the Sanctuary for a decade in the first place.
                          __________________________________________________

                          "Really? We are trapped in a room with a machine that can cut off my head. Now that's a longshot."
                          --Connor MacLeod in Peter Bellwood's original Highlander II script

                          Comment


                          • #23
                            Originally posted by Tootsie Bee View Post
                            No dates for Endgame are logical. The prologue certainly makes the most sense in 1994 for numerous reasons, but the present day story makes very little sense beyond its 2000 release date.
                            But why?
                            Highlander: Dark Places

                            Comment


                            • #24
                              Can we add Highlander 3030?

                              Comment


                              • #25
                                Very detailled ... Thanks so mutch Tootsie ...
                                La Peur Tue l'Esprit ...

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